Daily landy S3, needs to live outsidesebastiaan - 18/2/21 at 12:10 PM
Hi gang,
I'm contemplating replacing our family Berlingo multispace van with a series 3 landy. We do around 4k miles/year with the van currently, mostly
quite local. It lives outside and the landy would need to do the same. Am I mad and will it crumble to bits in a year's time or is this a viable
proposition?
Mr Whippy - 18/2/21 at 02:26 PM
Having owned and completely rebuilt 5 of the things I can confidently say that is a very very very bad idea. They are horrible to drive, incredibly
noisy, dangerous in a crash, slow as feck, drink fuel like you have a hole in the tank, rust, rot and leak like nothing else. It really is your worst
possible choice...
I still like them but will never get another. A Rav4, Jimmy, Shogun or even a Niva are vastly better vehicles to go for.
Funny enough every single person I have told Not to buy one has went off and got one anyway only to very quickly regret they didn't listen.
Funny story of the last one, was an IT guy at work. Got a heap, came over saying its got a blown head as it won't do more than 40mph! So I had a
shot and got up to 65mph and shouted at him "THIS IS WHAT THEY SOUND LIKE AT 65! YOU HAVE TO THRASH THE CRAP OUT IT!" it was up for sale
the next week...
[Edited on 18/2/21 by Mr Whippy]
nick205 - 18/2/21 at 03:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Having owned and completely rebuilt 5 of the things I can confidently say that is a very very very bad idea. They are horrible to drive, incredibly
noisy, dangerous in a crash, slow as feck, drink fuel like you have a hole in the tank, rust, rot and leak like nothing else. It really is your worst
possible choice...
I still like them but will never get another. A Rav4, Jimmy, Shogun or even a Niva are vastly better vehicles to go for.
Funny enough every single person I have told Not to buy one has went off and got one anyway only to very quickly regret they didn't listen.
Funny story of the last one, was an IT guy at work. Got a heap, came over saying its got a blown head as it won't do more than 40mph! So I had a
shot and got up to 65mph and shouted at him "THIS IS WHAT THEY SOUND LIKE AT 65! YOU HAVE TO THRASH THE CRAP OUT IT!" it was up for sale
the next week...
[Edited on 18/2/21 by Mr Whippy]
I've not owned a Landy so can't give any personal experience. Some of my friends have owned them (or still own them) and their experience
agrees with Mr Whippy. There's more modern and easier to own vehicles.
My parents had a Mitsubishi Shogun a few years ago. They bought it cheap (£1,500) and it ran fine. I drove it through some very muddy off road
places and never managed to get stuck either.
jamiepearson69 - 18/2/21 at 03:33 PM
I would 2nd that.
I would question having a defender as a daily let alone S3. 4000 miles a year in one of them is a lot of miles, most of them wont do more than 50 mph
and it takes a fair age to get there. If you get more than 20 MPG out it, you will doing well.
Don't get me wrong, I like Land rovers, but I would never consider a pre 1998 defender or series as a daily.
Given what S3's are fetching these days, you can also get something a lot better for your money.
sebastiaan - 18/2/21 at 04:03 PM
So universally a Bad Idea...
Besides the daily use being challenging, what about the "living outside" part? Are they really as prone to dissolving as Mr whippy has
experienced? Mind you, I've got a '73 Alfa and a '68 fiat 500 so am at least familiar with the sound of rust...
what Mr whippy said, the chassis disolve like cardboard in a rainstorm and the bulkhead aint much better, patern parts are cheap and available
everyhere, that,s good as you will be needing plenty parts to keep it mobile.
Mr Whippy - 18/2/21 at 05:22 PM
Ahhh my very last landy, she did come up well after a huge amount of work mind...
It'll be quite happy outside, but your problem may well be theft of it as an entirety, or theft in part. A local annual mileage of 4000 is fine,
but in colder weather you'll need a windscreen/interior preheater.
I've had 3 of the things in my lifetime, including the current one, which I've had for almost 30 years. It's a diesel, initially a 2.6
petrol, then a 2286/2.5 diseasel (not a spelling mistake) and now a 'period correct' Perkins, bought as crate engine. It's a 1967 109
(SII), the others were 88" SIII. The 88" tended to bounce quite a bit, was very short in the rear but had a bearable turning circle. Great
with a tow hook on the front bumper, for moving trailers. The 109" is none of those things, and the turning circle is of super tanker
proportions. Both cars in summer with the roof off were/are a special joy.
Brakes are interesting (especially that first stop to get the rust off the drum linings), the steering vague and the noise something else. Thing is,
there's nothing else quite like it.
Speed, well, there isn't any. Add to that a requirement to steer and stop in good time, it's pretty irrelevant. Doesn't really bother
me, bothers others, not my problem. As a 3.5T (dual use) you're limited to lower speeds. The race car/bike and a racetrack is where I get a speed
fix, the 109 is an antithesis to all that, and everything else on the road!
The SIII is a bit of a rot-box. The later steel was of questionable quality and rather thin. Lots of really dire death traps out there, masquerading
as useable vehicles. Finding one that's been looked after is key, anything galvanised (chassis, bulkhead, etc.) is a good thing, expensive if you
build it yourself..
Plenty of 'tax excepted' and MOT excepted (coil sprung, Defender vehicles with 300TDi/TD5 engines) and 'eazy fix' rubbish out
there, look at Ebay (etc.) and laugh.
I'm biased, but hell, be different. Abandon all thoughts of comfort, speed, bluetooth interwankwhatever capability, cup holders, and all that
other modern stuff.
HowardB - 18/2/21 at 08:08 PM
My S2 was rebuilt in 1993, it lived outside for most of it's life and used to be my daily drive. It was slow, noisy, expensive on fuel, but it
was cheap and easy to fix, more over it was fun.
Fun despite the 40' turning circle
Fun despite the 24 to the gallon - driven carefully
Fun despite the terrible ride and noise
Fun especially off road, fun up a mountain and Fun in the snow.
Almost as much fun as having a Scooby.
steve m - 18/2/21 at 08:41 PM
Ive never owned a Landy, and never will, as have no use for one, but i used to drive, and do some minor work on a Friends Lightweight Landy, all Alui
i believe, and was ex military and a parachute vehicle, well thats what the paperwork said !!
It lived outside, in all weathers, it started first time, certainly when i drove it, it was used all through the year, with no roof (by my m8)
the only maintenace it ever had in 15-20 years was an oil change, and filters, all done on my drive, i never touched the brakes, or anything else
and i do not think any other soul ever did any work either, and it as far as i am aware never failed an MOT either
The Landy ended up in a military collection, as the offer, my friend got was something like 10 times what he paid for it, but that could of been an
exaggeration, and ive not seen him in 10 years
ianhurley20 - 18/2/21 at 10:18 PM
I have had a lot of years with Landies, my first company car in 1969 was a s1 swb landie. Until then I had believed the hype about them being the best
thing since sliced bread. Not impressed at all. Later years and it was s3's, one being brand new. They all have been appalling as a daily drive.
2005 found me in a media marketing company selling Landies. I had a disco company car by then. Ok they have changed. I'd get people coming to me
saying the old one leaked water, had electical faults, had other problems etc. So what can I do for you? - answer - I want to buy another! I
can't believe how many problems the owners have had with them and yet they come back for more.
Me - I would never go near one, Toyota Land cruiser maybe but not a landie
RichN - 19/2/21 at 11:18 AM
I had a Series II for 2 years. It was a nightmare, I spent more time fixing it and welding the chassis than actually driving it.
So, I would not recommend buying a Series III, if you want it to be reliable and a relatively painless experience.
02GF74 - 19/2/21 at 11:27 AM
quote:Originally posted by steve m
i used to drive, and do some minor work on a Friends Lightweight Landy, all Alui i believe, and was ex military and a parachute vehicle, well thats
what the paperwork said !!
It lived outside, in all weathers, it started first time, certainly when i drove it, it was used all through the year, with no roof (by my m8)
the only maintenance it ever had in 15-20 years was an oil change, and filters, all done on my drive, i never touched the brakes, or anything else
and i do not think any other soul ever did any work either, and it as far as i am aware never failed an MOT either
Yes, if memory serves me well, the lightweight started with series 2a initially with a beefed up chassis (and stronger axles) with different body
work, which was narrower than the standard series 2a/3 so that it could fit in Hercules (?) transporter. It was meant to be carried under a Westland
(?) helicopter so was to be lighter than the military version of the Series (hence the name) but still ended up heavier than the civilian Series (so
it wasn't).
By the time Land Rover finished development of the LWT, the helicopters had been worked on too so the weight restriction no longer applied. All
Series models have aluminium bodywork except for the bulkhead.
As an aside, military Land Rovers have square off rear chassis member, still seen on Defender, detachable gearbox cross-member and the rear diff was
painted white to be illuminated by a convoy lamp, the idea being that one vehicle could follow another in the dark although how the first vehicle
found its way remains a mystery to this day.
The question of rust has been raised, but how many cars from the same year do you see on the roads? (Hint: next to zero), so in comparison, far more
Series Land Rovers have survived than their contemporaries.
Comparing a Series to a modern car is a bit pointless, and it would not significantly fare worse if comparing any 50s car to a modern one.
Back to OP question. I would guess the novelty of using one for a daily driver will quickly wear off if you have to do long journeys. They are slow
unless you fit a Rover V8 when 70+mph is achievable, expensive to run (I have LWT with Rover V8 and did at best 15 mph at 60 mph; off road it is
single digit mpg) , noisy, not overly comfortable with fixed seat and lack of elbow room (more so in a LWT), dangerous as no crumple zones, no air
bag, no ABS, maybe have no seat belts or just lap belts but conversions are available), cold: the heater is no better than an asthmatic rabbit
breathing on you, hard to drive as no PAS (conversion are available) but it does save on gym membership.
If you want something different from a euro tin box and that is very capable off road, then go for it. They are unlikely to depreciate in value.
mark chandler - 19/2/21 at 12:06 PM
I,ve had a 2a on the road, full tilt it was great on a hot sunny day with the roof down.
Slow, noisy, drank fuel, easy to fix - bloody awful as an every day car.
Get a 90 with power steering and a 200tdi engine, the earlier non turbo’s are slow as, the turbo D’s just acceptable.
And yes you can leave outside any weather, just drench the chassis inside and out with wax oil and keep on top of the bulkhead.
Prices are of stupid for these, 30 years ago you could pick up a tatty v8 90 for under £2,000 - the only thing that’s improved is the value!
02GF74 - 19/2/21 at 12:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by mark chandler
Prices are of stupid for these, 30 years ago you could pick up a tatty v8 90 for under £2,000 - the only thing that’s improved is the value!
agree with the above, a quick look on eBay, the asking price for LR LWTs in similar condition to mine is around £ 8k (I'm pretty sure I paid £
1800 around 2000) so that is 9% interest per year, I should have bought 10 of them!!!
There is someone near Amersham who is doing that, albeit with green Defenders, room for at least 3 more.... and who knows what's in the
garage! Mr Whippy - 19/2/21 at 01:01 PM
I think the point to get across is a Landy was never ever a car, its a crappy old farm truck... It's amazing how many don't get that
sebastiaan - 19/2/21 at 03:22 PM
Well, I guess this is quite clear now. Bad idea to daily one of these. I might just replace the (similarly slow) 500 with one; IF i can let that one
go...
ADH75 - 19/2/21 at 05:41 PM
That's my plans for next July at the latest too not s3 but a 2010 onward Defender. The current car's PCP finishes then, and as I won't
touch another new car or nearly new as I vehemently disagree with the data mining, sorry telemetry on new cars, I'm ticking another of my car
bucket list. Going for a 110 wagon as my main car. I've only driven the 110 utility before, was cramped, cold, leaky and my God couldn't
wait to drive it every day. Not often you look forward to driving something with a steering lag, never mind a turbo lag!!
SWMBO has been prepped, and told it does have heaters (no body tell her...) and although I hope to use it on off road trips, I'll be stripping it
out and doing my own "Posh Defender".
As long as its got a good chassis & mechanically sound, the way prices are going it shouldn't loose too much and as long as it has heated
seats should keep her happy.
I may be completely mad, but looking forward to the noisy, thirsty brick on wheels, but I'll have the F27 for sporty handling and the Defender
for towing, transporting the family and bikes and stop the other half having to sleep at the hospital like this year to make sure she was making her
shifts should we have bad weather.
[Edited on 19/2/21 by ADH75]
Mash - 19/2/21 at 09:30 PM
I always wanted a Landy, but ended up buying a 2003 TD5 double cab. 3 years old when I bought it.
Yes it leaked, and it was drafty and it had a crazy oil getting into the loom from the injector loom, draining down into the ecu problem, but it was
GREAT!
i regularly drove it 600 miles up and down the country at weekends, never got stuck in any crazy Northern weather, and did 35 mpg(provided I
didn't go over 65 mph on the motorway). I loved it, and when I finally sold it, it needed the rear cross member sorting and that was it.
Just be prepared to need to do some work on it and you'll be fine, but don't buy an S3
sebastiaan - 17/11/22 at 09:39 AM
Still messing around with this great bad idea. Yearly mileage has dropped to 1k miles on the second car....
sebastiaan - 18/11/22 at 12:51 PM
I may have just made a mistake. Roll on the madness
SJ - 18/11/22 at 01:23 PM
Looks lovely! Great that you took everyones advice .
I've always fancied one but in addition to the MK I now have an MGB that's almost ready for paint and putting back together. Fortunately,
despite the reputation my now 40 year old MGB had very little rust except in a couple of easily fixed areas, so should last pretty much forever when
I've done.
Just need to decide whether I go for an MX5 engine and box or stick with the B series once it's back on the road.
sebastiaan - 18/11/22 at 01:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by SJ
Looks lovely! Great that you took everyones advice .
But Mr. Whippy made me do it!
quote:Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Funny enough every single person I have told Not to buy one has went off and got one anyway only to very quickly regret they didn't listen.
[Edited on 18/2/21 by Mr Whippy]
And as far as rust goes, bulkhead seems solid, chassis, outriggers and crossmembers as well. Doors a bit frilly at the bottom. Smokes like a chimney
(white, unburnt diesel so will start with new nozzles, setting correct opening pressures and pump timing. Take it from there) and 2nd gear crunches.
Spending her first 41 years in Spain it's a Santana SIII) seems to have helped.
HowardB - 18/11/22 at 03:37 PM
and it will be great fun - a car can be a device for travelling from A to B
most of the people here realise that a car can be so much more,..
I am seriously thinking about selling mine, only to make way for another though
sebastiaan - 14/12/22 at 07:46 AM
Well, it's here. And it just fits the garage with the rear tires let down to 7 psi.
Brakes: toast. New master and booster don't fit (my bad, ordered the biggest booster I could find from a defender. Will make fit)
Oil leaks: yes
Seatbelt bracketry and kit: doesn't fit. Not even close. Will make work.
Weird mix of imperial and metric fittings throughout, also as expected.
Sand everywhere (yup, also as expected)
Pulled the dash apart and dunked all (4!) switches in the ultrasonic cleaner for "reliability". Lots of muck came out.
Still need to rebuild injectors, re-time engine, fit modern glow plugs and a general service before I can drive it.
It's just like a kit car!
SJ - 14/12/22 at 09:16 AM
quote:Originally posted by sebastiaan
It's just like a kit car!
I've got an MGB and that's just the same!
sebastiaan - 14/12/22 at 09:26 AM
It is actually quite interesting to see the differences in engineering between my small "fleet". The Fiat 500f is actually put together much
better than the landy, and both are of similar vintage as far as original design goes. The Alfa 105 coupe is in a league of its own in that respect.
You can clearly see that was an expensive car (and a 911 competitor when introduced - shame history decided it would not remain a competitor...)
the goal with the landy is to get it driving safely ASAP and improve along the way. Gearbox out planned for this summer to fix 2nd gear synchro and I
am sure there will be much more to come.
Benzine - 14/12/22 at 10:00 AM
Mt friend Ace has one in that colour and loves it
[Edited on 14-12-2022 by Benzine]
HowardB - 14/12/22 at 10:06 AM
working on a SWB S2 was my introduction to cars, I rebuilt mine. Areas for attention - brakes, brake hoses and clutch. double-de-clutching on the
gearbox is a necessary method as it has no synchro.
Update the headlights is good - especially for off-road and night driving.
also swapping the leaf springs for parabolic will help - everything adds costs - the biggest efficiency is swapping the massive 2.25 lump out for
something more modern with fuel injection.
sebastiaan - 14/12/22 at 10:51 AM
quote:Originally posted by HowardB
working on a SWB S2 was my introduction to cars, I rebuilt mine. Areas for attention - brakes, brake hoses and clutch. double-de-clutching on the
gearbox is a necessary method as it has no synchro.
Update the headlights is good - especially for off-road and night driving.
also swapping the leaf springs for parabolic will help - everything adds costs - the biggest efficiency is swapping the massive 2.25 lump out for
something more modern with fuel injection.
Yes, lots of scope for upgrades. Clutch is also on the list, probably with an upgrade to the defender pedal setup with "helper spring". Or
an additional booster in the clutch line, let's see. Key is making it safe-ish and driveable also for the wife, hence the big brake booster and
clutch stuff. Engine upgrade is enticing but if that happens, I'll go 2wd only, loose the transfer box (blasphemy!) and chuck in a modern EDC15
controlled diesel. Something merc or BMW probably. But that's lots of cost and work for a 1000-mile-per-year hack.
HowardB - 14/12/22 at 12:20 PM
That is a lot of work for 1000m a year.
later engines into an early chassis is common, td300 etc.
It is an adventure and great fun!
motorcycle_mayhem - 14/12/22 at 02:05 PM
My 1967 ex-Military SII 109: I went for a Mazda 3.0HA when the great rebuild happened some time ago, actually a Perkins 4.182 built under licence by
the Japanese. Suits the car really well, not terribly powerful, lots of towing torque (it's my backup race car tug) but not so much it endangers
the SIII synchro box.
The only other modifications of note were 4.1 KAM differentials, a SIII wiper motor and rack, SIII steering column and a single tank conversion (with
external filler) negating the need to strip the seating out at service stations. Screw-in wheels studs went in favour of SIII hubs with pressed studs,
welded one piece rims instead of the military split-rims. Synchro gearbox required some surgery on the chassis for the clutch shaft and slave
cylinder.
Heavy restoration centred on the bulkhead, footwells, hinge posts, top vent recesses and the modifications to mount the SIII column. Chassis
didn't need much, with the MoD underseal still there. I replaced the rear and gearbox crossmembers, one outrigger, due to squaddie damage, not
rust!
Roof off in the summer, on in the winter (or when full of stuff).
It's noisy, slow, uncomfortable, poor steering, poor braking, hard work.... but then it's not a Megabusa.
Just relax, take it slow, take your time (you have no option). You are everyone's problem, not the other way around, chill.
I can't say I miss by S3 though, well maybe a tiny bit when the sun is out but it was a thirsty swine
motorcycle_mayhem - 14/12/22 at 03:58 PM
As for that movie clip, can't say I have any feelings for Ace Ventura except nausea.
Showing my age here, but The Gods Must be Crazy still brings a smile to my face. I'm into microlighting, the sequel is still quite funny (to me,
again, I'm no youngster).
Mr Whippy - 16/12/22 at 12:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Showing my age here, but The Gods Must be Crazy still brings a smile to my face. I'm into microlighting, the sequel is still quite funny (to me,
again, I'm no youngster).
The thing I really liked was Xi reaching the edge of the world to throw the bottle and yeah that's exactly what it looks like! what a
brilliant ending
sebastiaan - 16/12/22 at 03:00 PM
Quick update: front seatbelts are almost in. Still need to clean the threads in the bulkhead, but looks like it'll all fit. New brake master and
larger booster in, required some mods to the pedal and brake pedestal. Nothing major though. Job stalled because I don't have the correct brake
line flaring kit, so ordered one and then it's game on again.
Hope to have her driving before newyears so she can move out of the garage and I can put the Fiat 500 back in which is now temporarily in storage.
sebastiaan - 19/12/22 at 11:15 AM
Belts in, injectors out for cleaning and reconditioning (new nozzle tips). Fitted simple electric washer bottle+pump as it had a manual thing before
which of course did not work. Brake pipe flaring kit also came today, so will give that a go tonight.
sebastiaan - 20/12/22 at 03:34 PM
Some pictures because why not...
It only just fits, with the tires let down
Nasty switchgear, since cleaned in the ultrasonic bath
Brake stuff in progress:
Seatbelts in progress:
sebastiaan - 23/12/22 at 12:33 PM
Tested the injectors. All had too low cracking pressure, one was leaking (yep, that'll explain the white smoke) and one had a very bad spray
pattern.
Pulled them apart, ran 'm through the ultrasonic cleaner and put back together with genuine Bosch nozzles. Adjusted cracking pressure and they
are ready to go again. Also adjusted valve clearances whilts the injectors were out and the engine was easy to turn over.
I hope to have her running again before crimbo, but am still waiting on some new fuel hose to come.
sebastiaan - 10/9/23 at 02:27 PM
This is still doing it's job. And breaking down every so often. Just like expected.
[Edited on 10/9/23 by sebastiaan]
[Edited on 11/9/23 by sebastiaan]
mark chandler - 10/9/23 at 04:41 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Having owned and completely rebuilt 5 of the things I can confidently say that is a very very very bad idea. They are horrible to drive, incredibly
noisy, dangerous in a crash, slow as feck, drink fuel like you have a hole in the tank, rust, rot and leak like nothing else. It really is your worst
possible choice...
I still like them but will never get another. A Rav4, Jimmy, Shogun or even a Niva are vastly better vehicles to go for.
Funny enough every single person I have told Not to buy one has went off and got one anyway only to very quickly regret they didn't listen.
Funny story of the last one, was an IT guy at work. Got a heap, came over saying its got a blown head as it won't do more than 40mph! So I had a
shot and got up to 65mph and shouted at him "THIS IS WHAT THEY SOUND LIKE AT 65! YOU HAVE TO THRASH THE CRAP OUT IT!" it was up for sale
the next week...
[Edited on 18/2/21 by Mr Whippy]
100% right, horrible things. I had them and raced them for years, if you must get a 90/defender or an old Range Rover.
sebastiaan - 11/9/23 at 06:40 AM
quote:Originally posted by mark chandler
100% right, horrible things. I had them and raced them for years, if you must get a 90/defender or an old Range Rover.
You're a little late ;-) It hasn't been too bad to live with so far, but I've only gotten through two tanks of fuel in the last year.
So very much OK for that kind of mileage.
it was up for sale
the next week... 
