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High horse rider imploded.

gazza285 - 26/12/09 at 09:26 PM

Again!.

ReMan - 26/12/09 at 09:29 PM

Thanks?

prawnabie - 26/12/09 at 09:39 PM

I think its in reference to a thread Mr Henderson and I were involved in today.

I.E someone on a "high horse" imploding and deleting a thread.

[Edited on 26/12/09 by prawnabie]

madrallysport - 26/12/09 at 09:39 PM

????????????? Do i need to drink more to understand this topic

UncleFista - 26/12/09 at 09:42 PM

Weird, as soon as I saw the "high horse" bit I guessed one of the protagonists

mr henderson - 26/12/09 at 09:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
Again!.

So that what it meant! I didn't get that either.

Thanks for a really great contribution to the thread, dickhead.

UncleFista - 26/12/09 at 09:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
Again!.

So that what it meant! I didn't get that either.

Thanks for a really great contribution to the thread, dickhead.

Err, whoever runs out of "a point" first and descends into personal insults/pointless swearing has lost the argument.

Congrats to Gazza.....

mr henderson - 26/12/09 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by UncleFista

Congrats to Gazza.....

Yeah, on him being a dickhead.

speedyxjs - 26/12/09 at 09:53 PM

This thread could get interesting

UncleFista - 26/12/09 at 09:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by UncleFista

Congrats to Gazza.....

Yeah, on him being a dickhead.

Case rests m'lud.

scootz - 26/12/09 at 09:57 PM

I have to admit to scratching my head when I saw the long-legged horse pic in the now-deleted thread... DOH!

I surprise myself with how dense I can be sometimes (thought I'd get that in before anyone else does).

mr henderson - 26/12/09 at 09:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by UncleFista

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by UncleFista

Congrats to Gazza.....

Yeah, on him being a dickhead.

Case rests m'lud.

Sometimes one just has to tell it like it is, no matter what. Sorry if he's a mate of yours.

Dangle_kt - 26/12/09 at 09:59 PM

Its winter - everyone is moody.

Can I suggest the two ladies spoon to calm down before handbags are drawn?

EDIT - arrr crap, too late.

[Edited on 26/12/09 by Dangle_kt]

flak monkey - 26/12/09 at 10:29 PM

Must have missed something...glad I have been out all afternoon/evening!

Calm down guys. Everyone seems to be suffering from GWS (garage withdrawal syndrome)

prawnabie - 26/12/09 at 10:35 PM

No - just suffering from one who thinks ones better than oneself.

A1 - 26/12/09 at 11:58 PM

ive got a bad case of GWS
and lack of driving syndrome

prawnabie - 27/12/09 at 12:02 AM

Yeah mines been off the raod for a month now waiting for a fuel tank and a diff rebuild.

Hoping to get it done next month though as MOT time is here and I NEEEEED to get back out on the road!

iscmatt - 27/12/09 at 12:11 AM

well this thread is a bit different to the usual.. I also have KDWS (KitCar Driving Withdrawel Syndrome) Too much sno and ice, when is it going to go!!!

Fozzie - 27/12/09 at 12:14 AM

Errrm .... I have just had a great couple of days away from the 'puter .. celebrating Chrimbo with friends and family, and have another day tomorrow visiting eldest son in Portsmouth.....

Sorry, but I have no idea what the above is all about, and obviously I didn't see the deleted thread.....

But Father Christmas did bring me some very nice pressies.......I hope he did bring you all lots too

Happy Christmas, Peace and Goodwill to you all.........

Fozzie

graememk - 27/12/09 at 12:30 AM

This is hardly the type of advertising someone looking for work in the kit car insdustry should be posting on a public kit car web forum.

You you have also been posting questions on how to do very simple construction issues one of the most recent being how to cut chassis angles in tube, when your going to be selling these to the public, clearly showing lack of knowledge and qualification to undertake kit car building and finishing.

you have to ask who the dickhead is.

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
Again!.

So that what it meant! I didn't get that either.

Thanks for a really great contribution to the thread, dickhead.

[Edited on 27/12/09 by graememk]

MakeEverything - 27/12/09 at 12:36 AM

Im not getting involved (ha ha), but im loving the light read before i go to bed!! I thought it was only me that fell out with people on forums!!

There are however, some very interesting views....

Fozzie - 27/12/09 at 12:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by UncleFista

Congrats to Gazza.....

Yeah, on him being a dickhead.

Ok, so I am now a bit more up to speed as to what occurred....

mr henderson, I will remind you, that 'insults and flaming' are against the terms and conditions of this forum.

No further warning will be issued.......

Fozzie ......Admin

skodaman - 27/12/09 at 03:40 AM

Parts of this thread remind me of some of the intellectual arguements one sees on you tube.

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 08:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by graememk
This is hardly the type of advertising someone looking for work in the kit car insdustry should be posting on a public kit car web forum.

That is actually quite funny, the idea that I am here for advertising purposes!

As for you other comments, I've already explained why I started that thread, but a shorter explanation is that there are always better ways of doing things, and as I also explained, I don't really need any answers on the topic purely for my own purposes, but I do think it is a fascinating subject.

BTW calculating the position of a bird's mouth joining two square tubes in different planes is NOT basic chassis fabrication technique, and I have yet to see such a joint in the various professional and amateur chassis that I have seen so far.

Have you seen any such joints?

[Edited on 27/12/09 by mr henderson]

MakeEverything - 27/12/09 at 09:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by graememk
This is hardly the type of advertising someone looking for work in the kit car insdustry should be posting on a public kit car web forum.

That is actually quite funny, the idea that I am here for advertising purposes!

As for you other comments, I've already explained why I started that thread, but a shorter explanation is that there are always better ways of doing things, and as I also explained, I don't really need any answers on the topic purely for my own purposes, but I do think it is a fascinating subject.

BTW calculating the position of a bird's mouth joining two tubes in different planes is NOT basic chassis fabrication technique, and I have yet to see such a joint in the various professional and amateur chassis that I have seen so far.

Have you seen any such joints?

Im probably about to stagger MY Henderson by agreeing with him and say that birdmouthing square tube isnt standard practice, but similarly, im of the understanding that it is a weaker joint for square tube due to the flat sides being under stress and a weaker construction to round tube.

Anyway....

Tune in next week to watch the next grippingepisode of "Dickhead and the Henderson"!!

(No offence, just sounded funny"

zilspeed - 27/12/09 at 10:05 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
BTW calculating the position of a bird's mouth joining two square tubes in different planes is NOT basic chassis fabrication technique, and I have yet to see such a joint in the various professional and amateur chassis that I have seen so far.

Have you seen any such joints?

I did one last week. Not on mine, but on a friend's non locost chassis which I am assisting with.
I'm sorry to say that it really is no big deal. We worked out the position of where we wanted it, I cut it with the hacksaw, the TIG guru tigged it into position. Really, no big deal.
I'm originally a joiner goign way back, so birds mouth joints are a fact of life when doing traditional roof construction, so it's just a joint.
If I might add, it pales into utter insignificance when compared to a compound mitre where the third member of a round tube chassis comes into two existing ones and has to fit in.
There's no magic formula, just lots of cutting, grinding and patience.
(Actually, that's not strictly true, there are magic formula, I can draw such a detail in cad, but it won't isolate the existing members to allow fitting, it's simpler to just cut it and grind it.)

Here's a small example.

Roll Bar

Very very easy, and all of the mitres are spot on and withstand scrutiny, but at the end of the day, you just have to start cutting and grinding and edging up to the finished job.

[Edited on 27/12/09 by zilspeed]

indykid - 27/12/09 at 12:03 PM

i imagine you'd measure between the corners of the two tubes at the points you want them to intersect and make that the apex of your cut. you could use a square on the faces of the tube for ultimate accuracy or measure the radius of the tube edge and subtract.

if it's angled, you mark up one face, set tube at said angle and bandsaw it.

i'd personally rather weld to the face than the corner
tom

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 01:10 PM

This sketch might help to show what I mean. It's pretty much to scale

Using a simple cad program I found that the joing tube would need to be 16mm square if the welding was only to be on the face of the end on tubes if they are at 45 degrees to eachother as shown here

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/598/birdsmouth.jpg

MakeEverything - 27/12/09 at 02:23 PM

I knew what you meant, but i dont think its as strong as having a birdmouth on square tube.

Good practice would be to use smaller tube to avoid the 'gap' as you said.

If its load bearing, i wouldnt birdmouth square tube, but if its not so heacily loaded (Rear basket) then maybe id consider it.

Just my thoughts. Good luck,.

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 02:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
I knew what you meant, but i dont think its as strong as having a birdmouth on square tube.

Good practice would be to use smaller tube to avoid the 'gap' as you said.

If its load bearing, i wouldnt birdmouth square tube, but if its not so heacily loaded (Rear basket) then maybe id consider it.

Just my thoughts. Good luck,.

The joining tube is square, I should have made that clear in the diagram.

If we suppose that this joining tube needs to be there in order to strengthen the chassis, then it's my belief that using a 25mm tube cut and welded as shown is stronger than using a 16mm tube.

MakeEverything - 27/12/09 at 03:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
I knew what you meant, but i dont think its as strong as having a birdmouth on square tube.

Good practice would be to use smaller tube to avoid the 'gap' as you said.

If its load bearing, i wouldnt birdmouth square tube, but if its not so heacily loaded (Rear basket) then maybe id consider it.

Just my thoughts. Good luck,.

The joining tube is square, I should have made that clear in the diagram.

If we suppose that this joining tube needs to be there in order to strengthen the chassis, then it's my belief that using a 25mm tube cut and welded as shown is stronger than using a 16mm tube.

Sorry, i meant to say not as strong as a birdmouth in ROUND tube.

I think birdmouthed square is weaker than round, so i wouldnt do it. Under load, i believe that the birdmouth is a weak point, and weaker than a flat mating onto its top or side surface.

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 03:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything

Sorry, i meant to say not as strong as a birdmouth in ROUND tube.

I think birdmouthed square is weaker than round, so i wouldnt do it. Under load, i believe that the birdmouth is a weak point, and weaker than a flat mating onto its top or side surface.

That may well be true, but that isn't available in the situation described above, where the choice is 25mm with a birds mouth, or 16mm without. Unless there is another way of doing it that I haven't thought of?

Richard Quinn - 27/12/09 at 04:56 PM

Would the 16mm have to be box? A few of the triangulation pieces in my chassis that join the main 25mm box at a jaunty angle are tube rather than box.

MikeRJ - 27/12/09 at 05:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
I think birdmouthed square is weaker than round, so i wouldnt do it. Under load, i believe that the birdmouth is a weak point, and weaker than a flat mating onto its top or side surface.

Not that I'm disputing this, but do you have a reference for this? Is it weaker under any type of load or just one specific loading?

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 05:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
Would the 16mm have to be box? A few of the triangulation pieces in my chassis that join the main 25mm box at a jaunty angle are tube rather than box.

Well, there are those that say that box section is stronger that the equivalent round tube, and it is an area that I would like to be as strong as possible.

In the particular case that caused this question to arise it's not really a problem because I can get a print out for the tube ends, and may well get them laser cut anyway. But I did think that it was an interesting problem that people would like to discuss.

scootz - 27/12/09 at 05:46 PM

I thought it was generally accepted that round tube is stronger than box section?

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 05:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I thought it was generally accepted that round tube is stronger than box section?

This has cropped up before, there's a phrase that engineers use to describe the strength of tubes, can't remember what it's called, but I expect someone will be along to remind us.

Was it something like 'moments of inertia'?

IIRC the consensus the last time this was discussed was that the reasons posh chassis are made with round tubes are-
a) there's a much wider variety of fancy alloys available in round
b) it looks nicer

[Edited on 27/12/09 by mr henderson]

zilspeed - 27/12/09 at 06:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson

quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I thought it was generally accepted that round tube is stronger than box section?

This has cropped up before, there's a phrase that engineers use to describe the strength of tubes, can't remember what it's called, but I expect someone will be along to remind us.

Was it something like 'moments of inertia'?

IIRC the consensus the last time this was discussed was that the reasons posh chassis are made with round tubes are-
a) there's a much wider variety of fancy alloys available in round
b) it looks nicer

[Edited on 27/12/09 by mr henderson]

polar moment of inertia is the term which you are looking for.

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 06:34 PM

Here it is-

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=113423&page=1

somewhat inconclusive, though.

In the particular example I offered above, though, the choice would be between 16mm round tube and 25mm square (or round) tubewith a bird's mouth, and I know which I would choose.

Cutting the bird's mouth itself probably no more easy or difficult in either, as the cut out would need to be square to fit onto the square tube

MakeEverything - 27/12/09 at 07:49 PM

Why was Zilspeed edited by Mr Henderson?? I didnt think you could do that? What did Zil say?

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 08:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Why was Zilspeed edited by Mr Henderson?? I didnt think you could do that? What did Zil say?

I didn't/couldn't, it's just a slip in the formatting, he's missed some ['s

gazza285 - 27/12/09 at 08:53 PM

At what point in this thread do I take umbrage at being called a dickhead and delete the whole lot, useful or otherwise?

A rhetorical question as I'm just not that childish. Perhaps if people had not reacted as badly when questioned about their motives, and phrased the initial posting better, then any friction would have been diverted. That, and a lowering level of pomposity from more than a few on here would go a long way toward a more harmonious community.

mr henderson - 27/12/09 at 09:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
At what point in this thread do I take umbrage at being called a dickhead and delete the whole lot, useful or otherwise?

.

Any time you like. Seeing as you started this thread deliberately to take the mickey and for no other reason it's rather laughable you trying to take the moral high ground now.

Peteff - 27/12/09 at 11:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
At what point in this thread do I take umbrage at being called a dickhead and delete the whole lot, useful or otherwise?

The sooner the better as it's just pointless and boring.

indykid - 28/12/09 at 12:02 AM

second moment of area is the term you're looking for.

i strongly suggest some reading. once you understand that, it's fairly logical to see which section is better in which scenario.

once you get into higher strength steels, you have to use round because they don't make it in any other section and will still be stronger/lighter/both despite the suboptimal section.
tom

Fozzie - 28/12/09 at 02:13 AM

As I have sent 3 u2u's to one person in particular
regarding this thread, and, although continuing to post in this thread, has not had either the courtesy or manners to either read or respond, this thread is therefore now closed.

Any person going back to edit will be dealt with....

Fozzie ..... Admin