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Solar power, Feed in tarifs etc.
russbost - 31/8/11 at 07:22 AM

So has anyone on here done it? I know it's not exactly locost, & you can't DIY as it has to be an approved installer blah blah blah, but IF the figures are anything like believeable then it would appear to be a no-brainer, even on pessimistic figures it would pay back in around 10 years & you'd then be making 10% a year plus saving on electricity bills (which if recent price rises are anything to go by are going to go up by a lot more than the 3% pa which they use in their calcs).

Add in an electric vehicle to use some of that power & things could look even better!

Any experience/comments??

mangogrooveworkshop - 31/8/11 at 07:42 AM

Im looking at doing the training shortly so you need not worry about the install bit.

splitrivet - 31/8/11 at 08:02 AM

Done work for two companies who supply and fit it and they both seem to be expanding big time. Talking to one of the owners its better than money in the bank, you need a south facing roof for it to be really effective apparently.
Cheers,
Bob

McLannahan - 31/8/11 at 08:13 AM

I don't know why but I'm a little cautious about it? It seems like everyone is jumping on the band wagon with it and that to me the bubble must burst at some point?

I also don't see how the future governments have to guarantee the returns too - if they decide to lower the returns or stop them - where do we all stand?

I may be getting confused by it all but it all seems a bit too good to be true - someone's got to be loosing money either now or soon?

My step father in law was telling me that a company have offered to fit his for free - no cost to him at all. The only way I can see this working for them is either a massive government backhander or they will be creaming off some of the money that should be going back from the feed to the grid?

Grumpy Michael

hughpinder - 31/8/11 at 09:08 AM

One of the chaps I work with has just agreed to have some fitted.
The company came and surveyed his roof and offered the choice of:
1. they pay for it and fit it and get the money from what it generates - he doesnt pay at all for electricity, OR
2. He pays 8K and gets the money from the feed in tarrif, which should pay his electric and a bit.

I believe the deals are so good as the electric generating companies are forced to produce more and more 'green' electricity. If they pay to fit it to your roof, and give you free electricity, they still increase the % they generate by green means, and should get more electricity back than you use. It works out cheaper to meet their quotas this way than to buy or lease land/roof space and then pay to put the panels on that anyway, and keep all the electricity. They get the 40 odd p per unit for the green power, but still generate most from nuclear at 7p or gas and coal at 8 or 9p/unit.

Regards
Hugh

matt_gsxr - 31/8/11 at 09:18 AM

If the devices work for 25years (as they claim) and the government pay out for the long periods that are described, and you don't mind it on your house, then a 4kW panel gets the highest feed-in tariff and if you live somewhere sunny it should all be good.

I think the government will probably payout for the periods they claim, as the cost will just be put onto everyone's electricity bill (the explanation for the expected 40% increase in electricity costs).

My concern is what happens when the devices break down after 5 years before you have got to the point where they have paid back. The firms fitting them would then all go under (as everything that they have installed will break in a similar timeframe) and you have nothing but an ugly lump on your roof.

Its easy to say that these devices "should" last for 25 years, but none of it is proven. We considered it for our school and the view was that the panel prices were coming down faster than 10% per year. The only downside is that the feed-in tariff will probably decrease year on year.

MikeRJ - 31/8/11 at 09:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
Its easy to say that these devices "should" last for 25 years, but none of it is proven.


That is the bottom line. The panels degrade all the time they are exposed to sun, so a 4kW system when new may be rather less after 10 years, let alone 25.

David Jenkins - 31/8/11 at 10:00 AM

I'm sure I read recently that the "meter" that goes between the panels and the national grid has to be replaced every 10 to 15 years (as do your ordinary gas and electric ones) - this is to make sure that they stay in calibration.

Who will be paying for that? Probably the householder.

[Edited on 31/8/11 by David Jenkins]

ReMan - 31/8/11 at 10:05 AM

Interesting thred.
I get more leaflets on this than I get charity bags throuh the door now!
(But at least the charity bags make good bin liners)

I'm interested, but uber-cautious on this

big-vee-twin - 31/8/11 at 10:14 AM

The companies that put it in for free take the feed in tarriff and you sign it over to them for the 25 year period.

You get the saving in energy i.e. slightly lower bills.

The feed in tarrif scheme is a 5 year scheme and we are in year 2, the tariff reduces every year during the five year period but once your on the scheme its fixed for 25 years and also increases with the RPI.

Personally i think all these companies that have spring up will disapear in 3 years time when the scheme ends - can't see the government continuing it.

There's also the renewable heat initiative which works the same way but for Solar Thermal (Water) and Biomass Boilers etc.

In fairness we design many systems and they do stack up and you get a better return on your money than the bank, however once the panels are on your roof(and no money in the bank) if you need some emergency cash you cant take one down and sell it!!

afj - 31/8/11 at 10:40 AM

i looked into it and the little bit that i was worried about was the inverter that they fit in your loft/outbuilding so i read they can sometimes only last 5-6 years at a cost of near £2000 fitted for one that can handle a 4kw system not sure how true that is though as its just whats on the net. the other part was as said above what happens in 3-4 years if another party is in and they cancel the FITS then you have a 10k system to save you £100 per year unless you retro fit a bank of batterys so you can use the energy gathered from the day at nightime when most of us are at home

russbost - 31/8/11 at 11:12 AM

It's all guaranteed for 10 years inc the inverter/meter etc - insurance backed so you're still covered if company goes belly up. The actual panels are guaranteed by the manufacturers (people like Sanyo, Suntech, Samsung) on a sliding scale of efficiency, but apparently they are supposed to be still 80% efficient after 25 years & if not they'll replace them! Believe it when it happens!

I think it's highly unlikely that future governments would interefere with the tarifs that you're already locked into (that's why it needs to be done b4 next April as tarif will then be reviewed & will defo go lower) as it's all "green" technology there would be a huge media frenzy (possibly even a Furore!)

Their figures are based on an increase in electricity prices of just 3% a year which seems very low given recent rises. As I understand it the money for the FIT doesn't come from the government, but from the electricity companies, which will surely push prices higher, but then I'd much rather be the bloke with a 4kW installation on his roof than the one without one if that happens!

What I'd really like to see are real world figures from someone who's already got an installation in place, preferably not an ideal installation, ie not facing due South on the South coast! The main thing that worries me is that if something sounds too good to be true it usually is!

Any further info much welcomed!

Strontium Dog - 31/8/11 at 11:40 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mangogrooveworkshop
Im looking at doing the training shortly so you need not worry about the install bit.


Unless you are going to do a lot of installs you might be better off doing them on a building notice (if you can do that were you are). Ive done a couple and they are a doddle to do. The only extra kit you need is a light meter as you need to take a reading and work out how much power you are getting for a given light level. All very easy! I just phoned the company that supplied all the equipment and they guided me through filling in the forms, everything else is general sparky type work unless you are installing the frames etc. Even then it's not hard, a trained monkey could do it!

MikeR - 31/8/11 at 11:51 AM

when this was asked last time I repeated what I'd heard on Radio 4.

When this scheme was first introduced there was an almighty issue with it. When you sign over your roof to the solar panel company try then getting a mortgage on the house. You no longer own part of it. This is fine for now whilst you own your house - but if this bit isn't resovled try getting someone to buy your house for its market value when you come to sell.

Please check it out - hopefully it is resolved (and if it is post here so we all know).

dinosaurjuice - 31/8/11 at 11:53 AM

by doing this you are also giving money to compaies who develop/manufacture solar panels. Which is surely a good thing for product development etc.

Stott - 31/8/11 at 11:58 AM

I read about this the other day here:

LINK

Might be worth you browsing through it

hth
Stott

jossey - 31/8/11 at 12:49 PM

i did it on my last house. Was ok. cost 12k to get installed and i got £800 per year back in "grants" based on feed in amount.

if you work from home or have family at home during day its not worth buying. if thats the case and you have a south facing roof then get the sposored ones. they give you the saving in electric and they get the £800 per year for 25 years. if your at home during the day you wont feed anything or very little so you will just get a £200-300 saving per year in electric.....

mangogrooveworkshop - 31/8/11 at 12:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Strontium Dog
quote:
Originally posted by mangogrooveworkshop
Im looking at doing the training shortly so you need not worry about the install bit.


Unless you are going to do a lot of installs you might be better off doing them on a building notice (if you can do that were you are). Ive done a couple and they are a doddle to do. The only extra kit you need is a light meter as you need to take a reading and work out how much power you are getting for a given light level. All very easy! I just phoned the company that supplied all the equipment and they guided me through filling in the forms, everything else is general sparky type work unless you are installing the frames etc. Even then it's not hard, a trained monkey could do it!



Hanging the panels aint the big deal its dealing with the inverters and if fitted the battery pack that Im specialist in.

I for see a lot of repairs and trouble shooting having to be done after the cowboys have creamed off the subsidies.

russbost - 31/8/11 at 01:30 PM

"if your at home during the day you wont feed anything or very little so you will just get a £200-300 saving per year in electric..... "

Apparently that's not how it works - I made the same mistake & was told that you get paid for what you generate whether you use it or whether it is fed back to the grid - if you use it you get paid an EXTRA 3p per unit you use, so it actually makes sense to try & use things like washing m/c, tumble drier, dishwasher etc DURING THE DAY whilst you are generating power - seems really odd to me, but then the whole scheme appears to be absolutely barking - there's no logic to any of it!!!

afj - 31/8/11 at 02:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jossey
i did it on my last house. Was ok. cost 12k to get installed and i got £800 per year back in "grants" based on feed in amount.

if you work from home or have family at home during day its not worth buying. if thats the case and you have a south facing roof then get the sposored ones. they give you the saving in electric and they get the £800 per year for 25 years. if your at home during the day you wont feed anything or very little so you will just get a £200-300 saving per year in electric.....


as russ says you get 41p odd for generating each kw and an extra 3p per kw if its exported back to the grid so you are best trying to use the energy during the day (sunny ones) you get paid for the 'generating' part as you are now a micro energy producer

designer - 31/8/11 at 02:35 PM

I would not want to be stuck in a house for the next ten years.

jossey - 31/8/11 at 02:43 PM

true guys. but most houses wont deliver enough energy from small solar systems to get the £800 back. MAX £800 that is.

even with the extra 3p i noticed i would have struggled.

i was told i would create around 1700 kwh which would give me the £44p per kwh so (£748.... but in reality the 2 kw SYSTEM created around 870 in the year. perfect south facing......

as its used during the day it created £382.80 of savings. of which much of which wouldnt cover the maintenance cost of the system (£280 per year plus cleaning £50)

so a huge saving of ...... DRUM ROLL....... £52.80.

For the cost of 12k installed and running.

as the price of solar systems have come down to around 9k for a 2.5-3kw system you should be able to make the saving and hit the benefits of the solar energy.

3kw system should make 2550 KWH's @ 44p £1122.00

so you should get your £800 max grant....

over 25 years would be 20k

but take into account the cleaning which is recommended and servicing (removing lenses and cleaning) thats about £300 per year.

i sold up and moved out after 1 year and made 40k on the house so all good.

jossey - 31/8/11 at 02:44 PM

ps you can move systems and if you sell the house on they can claim the grants so you get it back on the value of the house.....

hopefully.

big-vee-twin - 31/8/11 at 04:04 PM

PV panels have a rating expressed as kWp -kiloWatts peak, this is what the panel will produce in absolutely perfect conditions i.e. in a Labratory.

A standard panel is rated at aprox 230 watts peak, most panels are 12-13% efficient and therefore the output of a panel is 27.6 watts, this then goes through an invertor at about 98% efficient so the output is 27 watts per panel

This is why you need a massive area to have an array rated at 1000 watts.

You also need to know that the average sunlight falling in the UK equates to 750kwh/m/annum so you will never get the 1000 watts you get the 750 less the inefficiencies.

So for every 1KWp array you get, as a rule of thumb about 700watts.

jossey - 31/8/11 at 04:14 PM

better explaination than the muppet who sold me my system lol

MikeRJ - 31/8/11 at 05:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
PV panels have a rating expressed as kWp -kiloWatts peak, this is what the panel will produce in absolutely perfect conditions i.e. in a Labratory.

A standard panel is rated at aprox 230 watts peak, most panels are 12-13% efficient and therefore the output of a panel is 27.6 watts, this then goes through an invertor at about 98% efficient so the output is 27 watts per panel


That isn't quite correct; the peak output (kWp) is simply the maximum electrical power output for a given set of test conditions, so the conversion efficiency does not need to be applied to this value. i.e. a 230 watt peak panel will produce 230 watts of electrical power under the stated test conditions. Obviously the amount produced under typical UK sunlight is likely to be lower.

Bob C - 31/8/11 at 05:44 PM

This looks like the latest "money for nothing" scheme to fleece the general public...
I made a solar battery charger system for my brother's gate automation business. When it comes to sizing PV panels, they are sold with a wattage value which is pretty close to the max power you could get out pointing it directly at the sun on a cool sunny day. You have to multiply this by the "equivalent sunshine hours" value for your location. To put it into context, manchester has 0.9 equivalent sunshine hours per day on average. So a perfectly sited 100W PV panel would on average supply 100x0.9/24 watts = 3.75W.
The conclusion I draw from this is that anyone selling PV electric systems in the north of england is a conman. Usually they present calculations based on the 100W figure when they should use the 3.75W one.....
If you use a shunt or series regulator to DC (for battery charging) you lose another about 30% efficiency, but I expect the mains inverters have proper maximum power point tracking algorithms. Dirt reduces output a lot and a shadow over part of a panel will knock out the whole panel.

Wadders - 31/8/11 at 05:45 PM

My pal has a 4kw system on his roof which is south facing, it returned £680 for the first quarter, so he's reckoning on £1500 to £2000 for the year. plus whatever he saves on the leccy bill.

Seems to be a no brainer if you have the cash to invest, and are not thinking of moving.

Al

MikeRJ - 31/8/11 at 06:01 PM

Best thing you can use solar power for is heating your water.

JoelP - 31/8/11 at 06:06 PM

chap whos house we were at fitting a kitchen had someone round surveying his roof for pv, it was as large a roof as you could imagine - must be about 100 square metres. Im not sure why he was bothering though- he was apparently worth £90m A real top trump house, any fact about it would beat most others. Ie, 48 circuits in his mains board

Moorron - 31/8/11 at 06:38 PM

If this is selling like hot cakes then its going to end it tears, there are many poeple out there that think they are helping by scrapping a good but old car and buying a throw away car for £7k and think they are better off, gve it 3-5 years when the new cars falls apart and they are stuck with no car or money.

My Dad now lives in southern Spain, as you can imagine its sunny most of the time and he looked at solar panels. He didnt get it in the end as the guy up the road has a panel the size a 2 large cars that tracked the sun and couldnt get the power he needed from them all the time.

Its not wort the money, your getting tied into a contract for a large period of time and hoping the goverment dont move the goal posts. Too risky i think.

What happens if someone invents a super panel in 2 years time and then all the older ones are labeled poor and the contracts stopped or only honoured if you upgrade? What happens if a new battery tech is developed and the same with that? What if a house fire is linked to a fault and every one with them is forced to pay £2k a year+ on the insurance? and so on, i know its unlikley but 12K or 25 years means alot to me and i dont want to go losing it all, but like pensions!

big-vee-twin - 1/9/11 at 10:42 AM

There are also two types of panel monocrystaline and polycrystaline.

Monocrystaline are the more expensive.



[Edited on 1/9/11 by big-vee-twin]

midge - 1/9/11 at 11:58 AM

I plan to build my own as a winter project. Don't plan to tap into feed in tarriffs etc etc, just take my lighting circuit off the mains. I've got 2 truck batteries and an inverter, just got to build a PV panel large enough to charge batteries at 14v during the day. Done my sums and I think it will work. Has anyone tried this?

Steve

FASTdan - 2/9/11 at 08:50 AM

Interesting thread.

Im a novice to it all, and have only done minimal reading but if I were to do anything like this I would be tempted to DIY it too and use it for heating water (there seem to be a few sites with guides on doing this). As I say though I've not put loads of thought into it. Quite tempted to utilise the garage roof at our new house when we rebuild it.

Neville Jones - 13/9/11 at 10:31 AM

Apologies to those who don't want this resurrected....

I nearly replied on the day this started, but thought I'd leave it a week to see how it all panned out.

I'll try and be brief.

We had solar panels(pv) fitted by an acquaintance who was just getting into the game, and he did a fair job to get the experience for accreditation.

The panels fitted are the more expensive, but higher yielding model, which are initially more costly, but have a shorter payback time. The system was commissioned on the Sunday morning, 4th September, and the following week was not the sunniest. However, up to Sunday night the system generated just on 100kWhrs, which gives us a payout of just over £44 for the week. This is for a 3.8kW system, 16 panels.

I also checked the main electric meter. It's a newer digital item, and flashes r e d when the system is pumping into the grid.

As I work in a workshop and office at the rear of my home mostly, I'm using electric all day. The metered consumption has gone down appreciably, plus we get the payout or FIT payment, this last week of £44. I would expect this to halve in mid winter, but near to double in mid summer, so an average of 90~100units a week is expected from this size system.

To all the prophets of doom, this Feed In Tariff is written in law, and it's roots go back into the darkest untraceable depths of Europe somewhere, so it will not be cancelled at a political whim. There are also far too many commercial vested interests as well, so the full 25 year scheme will run. However, there is a decreasing tariff as years go on dependant on when you first registered on the scheme. The payment you get is fixed at the time of registration, and runs the full time of the scheme at that rate.

The next move is to fit an electric immersion for the hot water, and use the electric to heat that during the day.

So, to all those who can afford to do this, I say DO IT. It's a 'no brainer' as they say. Our system will be paid for in 5~6 years by the FIT payments, and at the same time our electric bills have been reduced by a big chunk. A double whammy, as they say. After the payback period, we're laughing. The FIT should pay all our utility bills, then some, and the solar electric system will cut our metered usage while we try to use as much of the generated power as possible during the day.

Set the washing machine to run during the day, the kitchen oven, and anything that is essential electric, as long as you have the system to power it.

Next move is to make some heat exchanger panels for the roof, to heat a large tank of water, then draw heat off this at night to heat the house. The Govt scheme for this is not cost effective for a non diy'er, as it only gives a payment of £300 as a one off, and to get that you must use an accredited fitter and parts, which wipes out the £300 payment many times over. Just not worth it if you can't diy. Although, a gent up in Kelso who got me into all this, claims his solar hot water works well in winter, and overly so in summer. We shall see....

I'm on the south coast, near Southampton. The effectiveness will diminish as you go north, of both systems.

Cheers,
Nev.

Hellfire - 13/9/11 at 11:42 AM

Interesting discussion.......

When the companies survey your roof for possible installation, do they actually check the structural integrity of the roof? The panels that are fitted do look quite heavy and could possibly cause the roof to collapse over a long period of time. I'm sure most rooves aren't designed to sustain the additional weight of solar panels over a prolonged period of time, so what are the implications if they cause your roof to fail after a few years? Do the installers have a get out clause written into the contracts absolving them of all responsibility?

Also, if a roof tile was to become dislodged causing water ingress into the building, I would imagine this would be quite an expensive repair....... Also, what about snow accumulation? After last years heavy snowfall I saw loads of houses with damaged guttering, after the snow had thawed and slid over the edge of the roof, taking the guttering with it. Given that there's little/no friction on these solar panels, I would imagine the guttering wouldn't even stand a chance of surviving if the built up snow suddenly 'let go' and I certainly wouldn't like to under the avalanche when it fell.

Do these solar panels increase your home insurance premiums yet? If not, I reckon it's only a matter of time.....

Phil

Neville Jones - 14/9/11 at 10:33 AM

I'll answer Hellfires queries one by one..

Structural integrity of the roof is part of the initial survey, to check for rafter sizes and condition.

The panels fitted here weigh 16kg each, we've got 16 making a total of 256kg. The mounting rails for the whole installation weighed about 25~30kg. So, a total of under 300kg, spread over about 25~30 square metres. 3~4 big fellas sat on the roof.

If a roof failed because of the weight of the panels alone, then the roof was sadly ailing to begin with.

The installer is reponsible for the safety of the total installation, before and after.

I can't see snow being any more a problem, or less. It could even be that the panels direct sliding snow past the gutter, so may even save the gutters. Depends on the installation.

Our house insurers have written to us saying that the premiums don't increase with the added panels, and the panels are covered in our present policy. (They recover their costs from the installer if his work is at fault, or problem is a result of his work.)

Additionally, the installer told us that he has got to insure each installation for its warranty period.(Part of the accreditation ) He pays a one-off fee per installation. Sort of like the product liability insurance scheme which was available for kit manufacturers, where they paid a one off fee for each car built, each time a car was built.

We had a visit from local Building Control officers randomly during the installation. This is not the norm, but they said that they 'just want to keep an eye on what was going on'. It appears that there are some cowboys about.


There's no reason not to do this, if you can afford it, and you have a south facing roof. The FIT tariff changes downward next March, and will continue to do so until the scheme finishes. What you sign up to today, is what you get for 25years. So, the sooner the better.

I can't recommend anyone to fit these, as the fella who did ours needs few more to his name before I'd say he was competent. He needed considerable help and guidance from a local experienced fitter (ex Trinity House lighthouse panel fitter)when doing this setup.

Cheers,
Nev.

hobbsy - 3/10/11 at 01:37 PM

Interesting to hear about your setup Nev.

I have also done some research into this but my concerns are as follows:

1) The maths is often misleading when people compare it to an investment - years before you see a return or "payback". It's misleading to compare putting your "spare" £10 to £15k into this vs savings/shares etc as once you commit to this you really can't get your investment back - whereas you could withdraw your cash or sell your shares quickly and get most of your cash back. A lot of the cost is paying for the accredited installation as far as I'm aware you can't economically transfer them from one house to another, which leads me on to:

2) Fine if you're planning on staying somewhere for >10years. Not ideal if you aren't. Yes I understand you could try and put in some clause where you still own them and get the income but it's not likely to be straightforward. And not many people are likely to want to pay a premium near what they cost if you need to move not long after having them fitted. Especially in the current housing market.

I'm happy that if you don't need the £10 to £15k for anything else (and won't do for the next 10 years) and you're certain you're not going to move then it is a very tempting thing to do.

However I think I am likely to move so much as I'd like to do it I really shouldn't.

Does any one know by how much the FIT's are going to be reduced to in April or further down the line? There could still be another sweet spot in the future where the FIT's are lower but the panels have dropped even lower in cost (and the govt are too slow to adjust) - so you get a similar payback time (and bonus of "free" electricity in the day) but the investment is lower. That is likely to be the timescale for me.

I love all the technology though. If I found a house which I knew was big enough and in the right location to always suit my needs I would ram it with loads of cool eco (but also cost saving) stuff. Uncertainty over jobs and therefore location is what's likely to bugger that up for me.

Neville Jones - 4/10/11 at 11:45 AM

Hi Hobbsy,

There's a govt white paper thing that covers all of this, and explains the system. If I can find it again, I'll post it here.

In the last month now since this system was installed, it has generated 416 units, at 43.3p/unit plus 9p/unit for 10% of it. Or, 44.2p/unit. My electric incoming metered consumption has gone from 11~12 units/day to 4~5 unit/day. These are hard statistics, straight from the meters. On projections of incomes and savings from these real numbers now in hand, conservatively, the system should give a net of £2300~£2500/year. I'll post the real numbers in 12 months time!

If you move house, the value of the panels, and the projected income from the panels, are added to the sale price assessed without them. Therefore, the addition of panels is seen an added asset. This is in the Govt paper, and corroborated from a local estate agent. (to save on Stamp Duty, the monies for the panels is negotiated separately. )

IF you could do it, (BIIIGGG IF) you could buy a house today, add panels, then sell the house tomorrow for the total cost, and the projected income from the panels would be an immediate profit. Depends on your negotiating powers.

I'll be starting the solar hot water stuff next month, as time allows. Plenty of info on the diy websites, and I've got a few 2mx1mx2mm sheets of copper that have been taking up space in the metal sheet rack for 20 years, so that'll save me a big chunk of cash. I'll have to buy the pump and connecting tubing, and the big stainless tanks. (two tanks, one for domestic hot water, one for heating. I've got a lead on some ex-dairy tanks cheap.) If anyone wants progress reports, contact on u2u after November, and I'll be happy to help.

Cheers,
Nev.

[Edited on 4/10/11 by Neville Jones]

russbost - 4/10/11 at 12:49 PM

Nev

Thanx for resurecting this & for the FACTUAL input of what your system is actually producing. What I would be interested in is - how well do the panels produce under cloud/shade? I've googled it & come up with nothing more than waffle saying "yes the panels will still work under cloudy/shady conditions" but nothing anywhere to say how well they'll work. Reason I'm particularly bothered about this is that my roof is partially shaded for anything from 2 - 6 hours a day depending on time of year - it would only affect around half the installation & they've said they can split the installation into 2 halves as apparently your overall output is substantially affected by the worst producing panel.

Incidentally there is a lot of misinformation going on here (probably because it relates to older installations) there are No maintenance costs, NO increased insurance & the installation is guaranteed for at least 10 years & then the panels are guaranteed on a sliding scale up to the 25 year period. Also the power output of the panels is around 248Watts & if you buy Suntech then the allowable variation from that figure is only +5%, no negative figure allowable! Hence 16 panels gives near as dammit 4kW & you would expect these to produce close on that on a good day, probably more like 2.5 - 3kW on an average day

As regards payback - you shouldn't look at how long it takes to payback, just look at what an £11,000 investment in a building society will bring you - no more than 4% even if you do tie it in for years = £440 pa, so even if the system produces half the projected output thats still around the same as you'd be getting from a building society, plus you're getting free power during the day & you've increased the value of your property if you do move. The projected figures they give only look at an increase in power costs of 3% pa - I don't think there's a hope in hell of that being so low, at least partially because the power companies are effectively the ones paying for the scheme - so expect power costs to go up by at least 6 - 8% pa. I think that unless you live well up North &/or don't have a South(ish) facing roof then it has to be a no brainer

Re the hot water heating installation, there's a brilliant website for DIY installations & he has pumps, plumbing diagrams, & circuit diagrams & indeed the heat exchangers which I think are something you need to purchase rather than make yourself. I've not got the details to hand at present, but will find them & post it later on.

hobbsy - 4/10/11 at 12:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
If you move house, the value of the panels, and the projected income from the panels, are added to the sale price assessed without them. Therefore, the addition of panels is seen an added asset. This is in the Govt paper, and corroborated from a local estate agent. (to save on Stamp Duty, the monies for the panels is negotiated separately. )


I don't quite understand this bit - what is the "value" of the panels? It isn't likely to be near what it *cost* to install them - e.g. £15k.

So in the worst case scenario you spend £15k on solar PV on your £200k house. 6 months pass and you have got to move for work, fortunately without panels it's still assessed as worth £200k, panels are worth what? £5k? Surely you can't force the new buyer to pay the £15k you paid. So you'd be £10k down if the deal was done at £205k (putting to one side all the other cost and pain of selling a house). This is my worry about short term huge loss if based on the assessment of "value" vs "cost".


Or have I misunderstood?

If there is a way around these issues then I could be tempted on my house before April comes (first drop of the FIT's right?)


Interested to hear about how your homebrew solar water heating goes.

[Edited on 4/10/11 by hobbsy]

Neville Jones - 4/10/11 at 07:45 PM

Hobbsy first-
I think you may be being a bit pedantic, or pessimistic, over 'value'. The word would probably be best put as 'cost of installation'. That's panels, inverter, wiring and labour to install. Basically, the bill the installer gives you. My system cost a little over £10k in total. The quotes we got ranged from £11,700 to £13,500.

If your system cost say, £10k, and the projected income for the next 25yrs is £30k, then the added value to your house would be seen as £40k. This is the wording in the govt documents. The new buyer gets the lower electric bills gratis, as it seems the govt doesn't want this bit discussed.


Russ-- The commercial heat exchanger panels for the solar hot water are very similar to what I'd be making, except the commercial items come in fancier frames. A sheet of copper(or ali commercially) with tubes bonded on to transfer the heat to the exchange fluid being pumped around the system. This is all sealed in a waterproof panel which is insulated behind the metal sheet, and painted flat black in front, to absorb the heat. I'll get some light ali channel for the surrounds, rockwool for the backing insulation, ali for the back(or underside), and some of the new glass that traps heat in for the front. Get the oxy out to solder the copper tube to the copper sheet. It's going to get very hot! Seeing as I have the copper sheet, and a load of 15mm tube, I see no point in buying commercial panels at stupidly high prices. And they're ali, which will last a fraction of the time of my copper items.

I'm planning on making the panel to fit along the lower edge of my four sided roof with a single peak, on the south side. It should be lowish in height but near to the full 40ft in length (suitably tapered upwards at the ends to fit).



The solar electric inverter is near my office, and the cooling fan sounds like a jumbo jet when at full chat. The people who quoted us wanted to put this in the kitchen, or lounge. No effing way!!! They didn't tell us about the noise!!!The further away the better.

Anyway, the cooling fan changes speed with inverter load, and I can hear when clouds are going overhead, quite clearly.

The inverter is a rare item, UK made!!! Mastervolt in Romsey make the inverter, and also supply the NOC for their solar stuff, and have done for many years. So this should be a reliable and proven part of the system. They guarantee for 10yrs. So the 'replace the inverter every five years' argument is dead on this one.

Last week, when overcast, the system was putting out 1500~1700 watts. In full sun today, I saw 3600watts. In mid summer with the sun further north, this would be the full 4kW allowable (and maybe a bit more).

I'll keep up information on performance if people ask.

Cheers,
Nev.

[Edited on 4/10/11 by Neville Jones]

hobbsy - 4/10/11 at 08:14 PM

Neville - thanks for the reply. I'd be interested to see the govt document if you have a link?

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or pedantic but saying you've added £40k to the value of your house in that way seems to be counting your chickens before they have hatched. Is the govt paper suggesting that should the amount that your house asking price should be increased post install? The extra £30k would take 25 years to realise - I know it's guaranteed income but asking for it up front seems a bit strange.

From the technical side though it all sounds excellent and it's really good to see some real world figures.

russbost - 4/10/11 at 09:29 PM

Nev, I'd been looking at the evacuated tube systems - not something I think you could make yourself very easily!

The website I'd been looking at was this one link

Did a bit of hunting around tonight & found this one, link he claims the flat panel system is better than evacuated tubes & also can be DIY'd as you suggest. Are you sure you want a panel 40ft long!!!??? I would think on a sunny day you're going to have water at nigh on boiling point! His panel is a fraction of that size. I would be wary of using copper tube due to the freezing possibilities?

Hobbsy, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the house price would go up (in the example given) by £40k, but look at it this way, if there are 2 identical houses in an identical street & one will cost £100 a year less in electricity & give you a completely tax free income of £800 a year, (& I think those figures are probably low rather than high) which one would you be prepared to pay more for? In the extreme example you give of needing to move after 6 months, yes, you would almost certainly lose out a little, but in a year or two's time, when you can prove what the system has been returning & such generous FIT's are no longer available, & when perhaps energy prices are, say, 15% above what they are now, the house with the solar panels could look very interesting indeed!

Incidentally, no way should you be paying £15k for an install, I've only had one quote so far & for a 4kW system (max allowed) I've been quoted £11k & mine is not a straightforward install as they've got to work it round skylights & split the power delivery into 2 halves due to the shading to one side of the roof.

Neville Jones - 5/10/11 at 11:02 AM

Russ,

I've not done the numbers as yet, but the 40ft length is the max I've got to work with. I'd like to keep it as unobtrusive as possible, as it will easily be seen from the road. A single black tube running the full 40' would be ideal. I suspect the final solution will be somewhere in between.

Most of the solar hot water systems around here have a panel about 1.5mx1m. The guy in Kelso has two that size, and he says it could be bigger for his needs. I'm here in the deep south, so the single may be enough in summer, but winter is another thing. Harvesting the heat is the aim, losing excess is maybe something as simple as a truck radiator and a fan, and a diverter valve, all activated by a simple thermostat. In the weather that you'd be dumping heat, the solar would be running at high output, so the fan and pump running costs are covered by your own generated power.

Re the copper, freezing is not an issue, as you use antifreeze as the heat carrying medium. It's going to cost a fortune to fill the system initially!

As I put, I'm looking at changing to an electric/solar hot water system for the house, and putting in a separate big tank to hold heat that will then be exchanged into the household central heating. The unknown at this stage is what to fill the tank with, that will hold the heat and let it transfer. May end up being something like brine, still haven't done the research. My son is a post doc researcher, and he reckons he can sort the problem. Why bark yourself when you own a dog.

There are a few dairies closing down around here(very sadly, the govt should be helping these people), so stainless tanks are available. Finding them small enough is the problem. Who needs a 1000l hot water tank?

I'm finding all this solar stuff very enjoyable to develop, and a welcome diversion from the car work.

Cheers,
Nev.

franky - 5/10/11 at 11:12 AM

FWIW i'm currently moving house, we looked at two houses that had a solar install, both were overpriced by about 10k(compared to other similar properties). We did the maths and worked out that based on having the extra cost on the mortgage we'd have to stay there for 20years with them performing at 100% to get the money back. Simply its not worth it. The 2 houses have now sold for the same price as others in the area. Basically its added no more value however it could be a selling point in the same way a new kitchen etc is, thus speeding up the sale.

russbost - 5/10/11 at 12:50 PM

"We did the maths and worked out that based on having the extra cost on the mortgage we'd have to stay there for 20years with them performing at 100% to get the money back"

Either they are an install that's worth nothing like £10k or, without wishing to be rude you've not done the maths correctly, or, more likely you've not understood the ridiculous FIT which the governement is running - that's the only thing that makes it worthwhile, one other possibility is that these are old installs which don't get anything like the same FIT.

Nev, all makes more sense now, so you're going for an indirect install then - otherwise the antifreeze will make your bath taste funny!

Would the salt in brine not cause probs within anything ferrous in the system, or can you do it all in stainless & plastic (can't remember if salt does anything with copper?).

Beauty of being an engineer is that you can work on & improve many different systems - not just cars etc!

dinosaurjuice - 5/10/11 at 12:59 PM

if i had the spare cash i would definately do this, mostly for the FIT payments, but also it would just be nice to be more energy independant

Nev, thanks for posting up some good facts and figures, very helpful!

hobbsy - 5/10/11 at 01:22 PM

Nev,

What the total area of your 16 panels (or each panel) and who are they made by?

I know it sounds like I've got a downer on pv but if anything the opposite is true - I am very interested both from an engineering and financial perspective.

It's just my own circumstances which make it awkward as I may move.

My parents however (retired, at home, high electricity usage) are not likely to move.

So two questions:

1 Is £10k realistic for a 4kw system with high efficiency panels like nevs (assuming their roof area is big enough)

2 Has anyone seen any figures on how the available power drops as you go North? They are West Mids / South Staffs area - I'd love to quote your figures to them nev but feel there's would be a fair chunk lower as you're almost in France

sickbag - 5/10/11 at 02:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by midge
I plan to build my own as a winter project. Don't plan to tap into feed in tarriffs etc etc, just take my lighting circuit off the mains. I've got 2 truck batteries and an inverter, just got to build a PV panel large enough to charge batteries at 14v during the day. Done my sums and I think it will work. Has anyone tried this?

Steve



Something similar. I have an 1.5KW invertor, that powers the sockets upstairs and the lights on both floors. The invertor is powered by three large leisure batteries, with room for more if necessary. Each day I take a different battery with me when I'm out and about in the car, which is connected to a split charger from the cars alternator. I'm basically running all of my equipment for free, maybe a tiny amount of extra petrol used but it can't be much more than normal.

Been like this for the past year now, and I reckon after the cost of the invertor, batteries, etc, I've just about drawn even. The batteries still hold their charge quite well, and as they've got a 3 year guarantee I've nothing to worry about yet.

Oh, and as I live in the countryside (ish) I don't need to worry about the frequent power cuts.

[Edited on 5/10/11 by sickbag]

franky - 5/10/11 at 06:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
"We did the maths and worked out that based on having the extra cost on the mortgage we'd have to stay there for 20years with them performing at 100% to get the money back"

Either they are an install that's worth nothing like £10k or, without wishing to be rude you've not done the maths correctly, or, more likely you've not understood the ridiculous FIT which the governement is running - that's the only thing that makes it worthwhile, one other possibility is that these are old installs which don't get anything like the same FIT.

Nev, all makes more sense now, so you're going for an indirect install then - otherwise the antifreeze will make your bath taste funny!

Would the salt in brine not cause probs within anything ferrous in the system, or can you do it all in stainless & plastic (can't remember if salt does anything with copper?).

Beauty of being an engineer is that you can work on & improve many different systems - not just cars etc!


The maths were done correctly, i'm not 100% sure of the spec but by the time you've added 25 years of interest on the 10K you can see why it wasn't worth paying a premium. Basically it held no major fiscal advantage paying the extra.

However maybe we're not fully across the FIT's as much as we should be!

JoelP - 5/10/11 at 07:15 PM

Just to chuck my 2p in, i think its outrageous that the government is wasting money paying FITs, and subsidies on wind farms etc, just to meet green targets. If the technology doesnt pay its own way, its not really benefiting us!

russbost - 5/10/11 at 08:01 PM

"The maths were done correctly, i'm not 100% sure of the spec but by the time you've added 25 years of interest on the 10K you can see why it wasn't worth paying a premium. Basically it held no major fiscal advantage paying the extra.

However maybe we're not fully across the FIT's as much as we should be!"

If it's a £10k installation which is more than about 6 months old it would almost certainly be 3kW or a bit less, but even an installation that size should produce an income (tax free) of at least £400 a year unless the install is facing the wrong way or is in some other way flawed (miles too far North, heavily shaded etc.), not sure what mortgage rates are like now (I have an old one which is fortunately locked to base rate, so I pay a stupidly low interest rate ) but with bank rates still at almost zero, surely you shouldn't be paying significantly over 4%, hence with a significant saving, probs close on £100 on electricity you are probably at slightly better than break even point now - given that energy costs will only go up I would still have thought it's a good investment!

russbost - 5/10/11 at 08:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Just to chuck my 2p in, i think its outrageous that the government is wasting money paying FITs, and subsidies on wind farms etc, just to meet green targets. If the technology doesnt pay its own way, its not really benefiting us!


Joel, couldn't agree with you more, I'm not looking at doing it for "green" reasons (I'm not entirely sure what to believe about pv solar panels, I have heard that their total lifetime output of power does not meet their power consumed in construction, absolutely no idea of the truth of this!???), but unfortunately feel that if I don't get involved in this then I'm going to be one of the millions that will indirectly be funding it!

Flat panel & evacuated tube solar hot water heating is however a whole different kettle of fish, as it's simple, cheap, non-polluting in manufacter & can be DIY'ed, plus it can payback within around 24 months!

Ninehigh - 5/10/11 at 08:15 PM

It's not a subsidy it's you selling your electricity.

Say you're at work on a glorious sunny day and those solar panels are at 100%. That energy isn't being used by your house cos no-one's in so it gets sold to the national grid. The alternative would be a shedload of batteries keeping it all

franky - 5/10/11 at 08:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
"The maths were done correctly, i'm not 100% sure of the spec but by the time you've added 25 years of interest on the 10K you can see why it wasn't worth paying a premium. Basically it held no major fiscal advantage paying the extra.

However maybe we're not fully across the FIT's as much as we should be!"

If it's a £10k installation which is more than about 6 months old it would almost certainly be 3kW or a bit less, but even an installation that size should produce an income (tax free) of at least £400 a year unless the install is facing the wrong way or is in some other way flawed (miles too far North, heavily shaded etc.), not sure what mortgage rates are like now (I have an old one which is fortunately locked to base rate, so I pay a stupidly low interest rate ) but with bank rates still at almost zero, surely you shouldn't be paying significantly over 4%, hence with a significant saving, probs close on £100 on electricity you are probably at slightly better than break even point now - given that energy costs will only go up I would still have thought it's a good investment!


Looking at 4.5% with rates only going to go up, i'm sure you can see though that its not a massive reason to buy one house over another.

JoelP - 5/10/11 at 08:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
It's not a subsidy it's you selling your electricity.

Say you're at work on a glorious sunny day and those solar panels are at 100%. That energy isn't being used by your house cos no-one's in so it gets sold to the national grid. The alternative would be a shedload of batteries keeping it all


Not at all, it is a subsidy! At the simplest level, you buy power from the supply companies at say 10p per kWh, because that is the market value; therefore, this is what it should be sold back for - less in fact, there should be a restocking fee! Yet the gov pays something like 4 times that for it. Thats a subsidy, no different from scrappage scheme, or indeed no different from a council house - everyone else chipping in to get you something.



Quite agree though russ, i dont blame anyone for doing it. But our government is smoking crack.


[Edited on 5/10/11 by JoelP]

John Bonnett - 6/10/11 at 06:24 AM

I think everyone agrees that it is a madcap scheme but from a consumer's point of view it is Manna from Heaven and an opportunity that should not be missed.

The Feed-In Tariff is set on the statute book by an Act of Parliament and is guaranteed for 25 years.
At the moment it stands at £0.43 for every kW produced irrespective of what is used.
It is index linked
Return on capital more than 10% per annum
Feed-in tariff paid by energy companies not the Government
They assume that you will use 50% of the power you generate and pay £0.3 per kW on the balance with no check.
You can use all the electricity you generate which, depending on lifestyle and use of equipment can reduce your bill.
I would regard any reduction on my electricity bill as a bonus. The big attraction is the return on the investment.

So, it is a sound investment, certainly better than having money in a Building Society although as has been said the capital is locked in for 6 or 7 years depending on the pay-back time.

Second, the energy companies are going to put up their prices to ease the pain of paying out the feed-in tariffs. So, those that haven't will subsidise those that have.

What are the pitfalls?

It is a growth area like double glazing was many years ago and it has attracted cowboy installers and pressure salesmen
Shoddy installation of low quality panels

Reputable firms offer insurance to cover the liftetime of the system should they go under.
They will show you a league table of panel performance which illustrates the decay in output over time.
Surprisingly, Sanyo are not in the top 10. Top are Bosch and ZN Shine manufactured in Germany.
They will give references so that you can see the quality of their workmanship.

As far as moving house is concerned, I believe you can take your panels and feed-in tariff with you or leave the panels, have more fitted to your new home and cointinue receiving the payments.

John

[Edited on 6/10/11 by John Bonnett]

[Edited on 6/10/11 by John Bonnett]

Neville Jones - 6/10/11 at 11:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
It's not a subsidy it's you selling your electricity.

Say you're at work on a glorious sunny day and those solar panels are at 100%. That energy isn't being used by your house cos no-one's in so it gets sold to the national grid. The alternative would be a shedload of batteries keeping it all


That's right. The big con in all of this, is they pay you an extra 9p/unit on 10% of what you generate, because they reckon you 'export' that much to the grid. The converse is closer to truth. You use most of your metered electric at night, when the system is not generating, and export most of it when you're not home during the day.

However, I have seen a 50% or more drop in incoming metered consumption. We are changing from on-demand gas hot water to electric/solar, to maximise the benefits. But only because the hw boiler is near the end of its life and will need replacing soon. Also, I can cobble the solar/electric system together myself.

We've changed our ways of doing things as well. Put a timer on the washing machine, so it runs during the day. Similar with dryer. And the oven goes on in the afternoon to use the solar as well.

What has got me still a little perplexed, is where did they get the 43.3p/unit figure from? I can't find any info as to the source. My guess is that the price of electricity will be that well before the end of the 25 years the scheme is to run, and nobody is telling us the truth on this point. At present we pay about 20p/unit for the first couple of thousand, and 9p/unit for the rest. (the 20p portion covers standing charges)

So, based on my suspicions, electricity is going to more than double in price in less than 10 years time. You've all been warned.

Anyway, what you do yourselves is entirely your decision. What I have here is paying for itself well and truly. And in 5 years time when it has payed for itself, at worst, it will be better than halving our electric bills, ignoring any FITS payments we continue getting.

Cheers,
Nev.

John Bonnett - 6/10/11 at 12:25 PM

I agree with you Nev, the price of electricity will rise enormously over the next 25 years, for everyone. Once the system has paid for itself in 6 or 7 years, some of the income received from the feed-in tariff can go to paying the electricity bill. Those that don't have a PV system are going to suffer more than those with one.

plentywahalla - 6/10/11 at 12:47 PM

I can see several fallacies in the scheme.

Firstly, it is only sustainable for the electricity companies whilst only a very small number or customers have PV installations. They are subsidising the FIT by profits from the huge margins they make on power from conventional generators. As these go off-line as new stations are not being built, they will be forced to revise the economics.

Secondly, I have seen quotes of 10% per annum return. This is assuming no depreciation in the installation. All electrical equipment has a service life and these costs must be factored in. Real returns are likely to be less than 5%

Thirdly, Interest rates are set to rise. Spend your £12,000 on buying a 25 year fixed term annuity. You will get a higher return guaranteed ... and no ugly junk on your roof.

JoelP - 1/11/11 at 08:31 PM

Apparently there is a consultation underway proposing to cap the FIT payments at 21p, which they estimate reduces the return to 4.5%. I think this will probably ruin the whole PV industry to be honest, but its fair on everyone else at least. Only for new installs mind.

hobbsy - 1/11/11 at 10:05 PM

This is taking effect from 12th Dec for new installs only as you say. I'm hoping to get mine in before then but its going to be tight. Thought I would have until April!

Rod Ends - 2/11/11 at 12:57 AM

Good riddance to Rent-seekers

hobbsy - 2/11/11 at 02:45 AM

A fair bit of truth in that article but also a glaring error in that it isn't the taxpayer that funds the FITs but the energy companies (albeit via increased bills for most customers)

There are so many other things that work in similar ways though - you can 't really cricitise people for doing their research and taking advantage of schemes that are available to them. Not a very fair comparison but you could say that ISAs and their tax free status is funded by other tax payers. Where do you draw the line?

van cleef - 2/11/11 at 06:55 AM

I fit solar panel's as part of my roofing work sub contracted into another company just fitting the actuall panel's and because of the FIT being capped the customer's are now backing out at the last minute.Work on the solar panel work with the company I am currently working with has now slashed by half because of the customer now taking longer to gain some of their money back they have invested into the panels

big-vee-twin - 2/11/11 at 09:57 AM

Feed in Tariff levels have just been cut in Half confirmed yesterday, installations have to be completed by 12th Dec 2011 to receive current levels.

The 32.9 pence received for installations above 4kw has been cut to 15.2 pence for example.

Looks like the bubble has burst for those who invested their time and money setting up solar PV companies.

The only reason to put them up now is to comply with planning requirements for new construction, most authorities require 10% renewable energy.

Think the domestic retro market will die very quickly.

James - 2/11/11 at 10:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones

We've changed our ways of doing things as well. Put a timer on the washing machine, so it runs during the day. Similar with dryer. And the oven goes on in the afternoon to use the solar as well.



Sorry to be off-topic and not wanting to teach you to suck eggs mate but please be careful of this! I used to happily leave the washing machine on at night or when going out.

Then, one evening turned washing machine on before going to Thai boxing class. Happened to get my eyebrow split open and had to go to A&E so wasn't home for 5 hours. Came home to find the downstairs full of steam, the washing machine still on after 5 hours and it had set itself to boil wash, the front of it had got so hot it had melted and dropped off onto the floor. Inside was a shrunken brown mess of what had been my girlfriends whitewash! So £250 for a new washer and about £200 in new clothes.

I bought some fire alarms after that too!

Anyway, just don't want you to have a similar (or worse!) situation happen!

Cheers,
James

pajsh - 2/11/11 at 01:07 PM

Our first 25 year endowment came up (short!!) in June this year and I was really thinking about this seriously with the monies realized.

My main concerns were the longevity of the panels and the stability of the companies selling them and I've found this thread very interesting. My main reason for not jumping in back in the Summer was I am hoping my kids will be moving out soon and we can downsize to a smaller place in the country. If not I would have gone ahead.

However, if the FIT's are going to halve then that's a different picture and I feel sorry for all the people who have a vested interest in the sales of these systems. It must have been a real dark day when this news came out.

Trying to be positive, perhaps the initial FIT's were the Governments/Energy companies efforts to kick start the industry and hopefully with more efficient panels and lower costs soon we may all be able to benefit from generating our own electricity.

I read this week that the UN predicts in only 20 years time we will need the resources of 2 earths to sustain our present levels of consumption so we need to do something.

Not a pleasant thought.



[Edited on 2/11/11 by pajsh]

paulf - 2/11/11 at 01:21 PM

There was a company in east Anglia on the news complaining about the fact that they would no longer get the 32p per unit for the field full of panels that they had planned on installing to enable them to profit from all the electricity users that would then have to pay inflated prices for there domestic electricity.They seemed to think they had a right to be paid a way over inflated price per unit for power generated by a couple of fields full of panels, the feed in tariff was not designed for this and should be limited to domestic users only and then limited in value as the government now seem to realise.
Paul

quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
Feed in Tariff levels have just been cut in Half confirmed yesterday, installations have to be completed by 12th Dec 2011 to receive current levels.

The 32.9 pence received for installations above 4kw has been cut to 15.2 pence for example.

Looks like the bubble has burst for those who invested their time and money setting up solar PV companies.

The only reason to put them up now is to comply with planning requirements for new construction, most authorities require 10% renewable energy.

Think the domestic retro market will die very quickly.

cjwood23 - 3/11/11 at 01:05 PM

Interesting topic chaps, and some good discussion going on.

I think even with the reduction in the FIT it's still a pretty decent investment (if thats the right phrase?) if you can afford it.
Electricity prices are only going to go one way - and that's up - what ever you can do to save/reduce costs is going to be beneficial in the long term.

We're moving house in the next couple of weeks, and if we have any spare cash I will probably look into this.

franky - 3/11/11 at 02:45 PM

I'm glad the FIT are being cut, they're effectively funded by everyone else with electricity who do not have solar panels.

The companies who set up on the band wagon are effectively get rich quick companies, yet again funded by you and me through increased power costs.

It's a shame it's taken this long for something to be done about it.

hobbsy - 3/11/11 at 04:26 PM

We are not the only country with a FIT scheme - there are similar schemes all over Europe and the RoW and some of these are even more attractive and no doubt are being financed by EU money or similar. It's going to be interesting to see how all the targets we've signed up to are going to be met as PV quite likely was going to play a large part it in and now it's going to go a lot more slowly.

Have no fear there will be some other energy company / tax payer funded scheme in order to force the change that is needed to meet the targets we are signed up to. There will be people ready to take advantage whether that is for the right reasons or not depends on each scenario.