NS Dev
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| posted on 22/7/04 at 07:17 PM |
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Ok, now I know I hate turbo's but...............
Been meaning to post this link for a while. I'm into cars of any sort really, in fact anything with engine and wheels!! I am involved with the
Opel Manta Owners Club and through this came across this beast of an engine fitten into an Opel Manta A Series. The car itself is awesome, but
download the MPEG linked below for a real treat of engineering.....I'll just whet your appetite with over 700Nm of torque from a 2 litre 4cyl
engine running on normal petrol!!
Takes a while to download.
http://www.hilmersson-racing.com/bilder/Filmer/Manta_bromsning.mpg
here's a pic of it, replete with turbo and supercharger, all homebuilt!! (not by me I hasten to add)
[Edited on 22/7/04 by NS Dev]
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chris_smith
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 posted on 22/7/04 at 07:37 PM |
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now that is power 
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macspeedy
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| posted on 22/7/04 at 07:45 PM |
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 cool
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paulbeyer
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| posted on 22/7/04 at 10:36 PM |
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Holy horse poo Bat Man what Volvo did that engine come from.
James (Hicost) has a video of a Supra on a rolling road pumping out over 1000 bhp. The noise is awesome. I'll have to get him to post it on this
site.
7 out of 10 people suffer with hemorrhoids. Does that mean the other 3 enjoy them?
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Findlay234
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| posted on 22/7/04 at 11:22 PM |
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At the Uxbridge autoshow this year there was a Cosworth escort that had similar values. There was a dyno print out and showed max HP at just over
500!!!!!!!!!!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 23/7/04 at 07:34 AM |
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Yes, but the big difference is that engines like the one in that escort are the reason I HATE normal turbocharged engines!!
They have an enormous turbo, with huge lag, then use complex anti-lag systems to get around it, which then overheat everything and are not reliable
over a long period. A big-turbo cossie engine is great for pub numbers but pretty much undriveable in the real world. (I speak from driving
experience!)
If you look at the Manta engine's dyno plot, as was noted up the thread, it has "real power" i.e. not one big spike as you get with
a big turbo normally. The reason is the use of the turbo and supercharger. It's not the peak numbers on that manta, it is the superb power
spread. I mean, the engine is already making 150hp below 3000 rpm!
Just to put it in perspective, the manta is running 10 sec 1/4 miles with 2wd and on "normal" road tyres!! (i.e. not the big drag type
ones!) Yes, there are other road cars which will run these sort of times but not many with only 2wd.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 23/7/04 at 08:16 AM |
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Buy performance ford magazine, full of 4x4 saph cossies putting out 600bhp+ with huuuuuge turbos and 300bhp nos systems. And these were 18 year
olds!!!!!
Adam
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mackie
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| posted on 23/7/04 at 08:51 AM |
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The Reyland Escos that took part in this year's Gumball (and was totalled as a result) had just over 600bhp. I have no idea how drivable it was
but since it crashed I'd have to say it had the ability to bite, and that's with 4wd.
I think I prefer N/A engines too but the turbo kick-in-yer-pants is fun as a passenger.
I think my new dream daily driver will be the new M5, 5l V10, revs to over 8000 rpm and kicks out over 500bhp, like a honda VTEC's bigger,
scarier brother
Ofcourse the new audi RS6 will have a very similar engine of Lambo origin
I can dream...
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/7/04 at 02:57 PM |
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Nice one Mackie! I like the dream car viewpoint, the new M5 should kick ass (certainly more so than the last "new" one which was a bit
limp)
Wouldn't mind an old RS6 myself!!
as for the 600hp cossies, that's the very reason I don't buy that mag anymore!!
Yep, they're good for going up santa pod in but not for much else! Make the bottom end strong enough and bolt a bit enough turbo on and you can
get that power from pretty much anything, but that totally misses the point!! DRIVEABILITY!!! (Oh yes, and 600hp cossies are generally not 600 hp, 18
year olds like to exagerrate, bit like the "1000hp Supra" that me an my mate destroyed up santa pod with a 540hp Ultima, don't think
the supra had been on a dyno somehow!!!!!!!......to get a cossie engine to 600hp needs race fuel too, run that on normal petrol and you will have four
holes where the pistons were!)
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/7/04 at 03:02 PM |
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Just spotted, phelpsa, that you say the 600hp cossies were running 4x4 systems, out of interest, where did they get the gearboxes and diffs from?
Somebody I know is having a lot of problems with cossie 4x4 running gear breaking at 400hp, and that's full Ford Motorsport group A stuff.
Recently bought a s/h ex escort WRC gearbox for 25 grand and it broke at the first event!
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Danozeman
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| posted on 26/7/04 at 03:21 PM |
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That looks one sweet engine. Just waiting for the vid to download.
I agree with all youv said about the cossie's. Im only 22 by the way and have never wanted a big turbo with high revvy power. Pure power with
loads of low down grunt is what its all about.
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Dale
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| posted on 26/7/04 at 03:52 PM |
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The twin cam volvo head is a great flowing head able to make lots of power with little porting required. There are people in N.A. running that
head on the ford 2.3 block with at least one pulling 8 sec 1/4 mile in a volvo wagon. I have a 2.3 turbo and have considered going to a smaller turbo
than stock if the lag is an issue. A light car with a sudden kick when your not expecting it would not be best.
Dale
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NS Dev
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| posted on 27/7/04 at 07:05 AM |
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Quite right Danozeman!
Dale - dead right, you might not make huge top end power with the smaller turbo but then you won't need it.......the torque from a turbo engine
with an appropriately sized turbo should make a locost more than entertaining!!
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mackie
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| posted on 27/7/04 at 12:15 PM |
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On the subject of turbos has anyone driven a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo? Are they any good?
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AndyE
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| posted on 27/7/04 at 01:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mackie
Has anyone driven a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo? Are they any good?
Hello, I'm new here.
I've driven a 20v turbo FC, they're quite well behaved in terms of handling but (as you can imagine) the torque steer is a bit unpleasant.
As is so frequently the case, it's a shame they're FWD.
They're quite fast, and the factory brakes are good enough.
The doorhandle came off in my hand, and five minutes into driving it sprang a coolant leak.
However, the power delivery is good, with the feel of a surprisingly flat torque curve and pleasantly little turbo lag.
[Edited on 27/7/04 by AndyE]
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Nick Davison
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| posted on 27/7/04 at 03:40 PM |
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Good old Fiats eh! Can't beat a bit of budget Italian superficial engineering.
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mackie
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| posted on 27/7/04 at 03:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Davison
Good old Fiats eh! Can't beat a bit of budget Italian superficial engineering.
Hehe, says mr lancia turbo! 
I've always quite liked them but was put off by italy's engineering reputation and workmates telling me their last service cost 2 grand
I wonder how much second hand 350Zs will be in 2 or 3 years time....
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NS Dev
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| posted on 27/7/04 at 04:38 PM |
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can give some advice here, as my dad had one of the "limted edition" "special" ones!
Good points - awesome brakes, best of any "standard" road car I have ever driven. looks "different", handles well for a fwd,
sounds lovely, cruises easily at 140mph indicated.
Bad points - servicing is almost impossible, ask anybody about the cambelt change........engine out job and being a Fiat everything you take off the
get at anything breaks in the process!, The switchgear on the dash fell to bits, exhaust rotted in very short order, lots of niggles with
non-essential bits, though the main components like engine and 'box seemed strong enough. Pretty heavy, and very front biased and feels it.
Basically not a car to own privately, dad's was on the company so the ridiculous service costs were not a problem. Oh yes, and Fiat dealers are
by and large useless!!! (like not changing the oil filter at the main service!!, then arguing when I went back with my dad to complain, even though I
had marked the filter before he took it in as I was suspicious about the quality of the dealer!)
As a parting shot, get the fiat owners service book for one and look at the recommended hours time for the cambelt service, then multiply by the usual
hourly rate!!! I'll say no more!
Fast and sounded lovely and brakes to die for though! (so much so I used the calipers off one in the scrappy for my old rally car, nice big brembo
alloy 4 pots!)
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NS Dev
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| posted on 27/7/04 at 04:41 PM |
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Flipping hell Mackie! Didn't even read your post about the service costs until I posted the one above, good to see we independently had the same
experience!!
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Arrowsmith
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| posted on 15/10/04 at 08:10 PM |
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just happend to see this thread today....
I live in south sweden quite close to the guy that built the car this thread started with. I have seen that car regulary and the whole car is a
monster in every way.
it goes like a lightning and is in a better than new condition. Not a bit is left un touched when the car was built.
It's just awsome in every way
and if you download the video clip linked above, listen to the terrific sound of the swedish compressor manufactured by
www.lysholm.se
the car looks good at the videoclip but thats nothing to compare with seeing it
in real life...
[Edited on 15/10/04 by Arrowsmith]
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 16/10/04 at 11:46 AM |
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The Fiat is really not that bad for servicing if you take it to independant specialists rather than main dealers. The engine does not have to come
out for a cam belt change, a way around this was found and gave a corresponding large drop in the labour costs.
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david walker
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| posted on 17/10/04 at 08:33 AM |
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I've changed cambelts on all sorts of cars and don't see how you can change one on a Fiat Coupe Turbo without taking engine out. The same
engine is fitted in one of the Marea saloons and I agree, that contrary to Fiat advice, that can be done in situ. The Coupe Turbo - I don't
believe it!
Regarding Fiat quality, in my opinion 10 and 20 years ago Fiat engines were very good (the whole range but old twincam in particular) but that has
changed today. I think none are good. The 5 cyl Coupe is good on performance but little else, the 12valve engines should have been banned by the
Trading Standards authority, and the little 1200 Punto engines would be OK if they came with spare head gaskets...
Dave Walker, Race Engine Services - 07957 454659 or 01636 671277
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 17/10/04 at 08:53 AM |
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From http://www.fiat-coupe.com regarding the 20V Turbo:
"Cam Belt - Yep the dreaded cam belt - to be changed every 72k miles or five years whichever is sooner.. Very important as new engines are not
cheap! Infact about 4k. I personally wont be leaving mine till 72k miles. The cost can be very high. Some garages still insist its an engine out job.
It Isnt. Look at the forum - you can get it done by members here for £600 for all belts, pulleys and water pumps, oh and pretentioners.. Fiat would
want double that. "
Had a look around and it's cheaper than that, cam belt only change is around £299, the full works around £499 from e.g.
http://www.motor-mech.co.uk/20VT_Price_List.htm
http://www.powerfiat.co.uk/
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JoelP
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| posted on 17/10/04 at 07:18 PM |
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i know its not exactly the range-topping engine, but the seicento engine is utter shite too. the valves sound like they're gonna fall out after
a little hard driving.
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zilspeed
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| posted on 17/10/04 at 07:40 PM |
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I had a Marea 2.0 20 valve - yep the 5 cylinder job.
Glorious noise, but.....
In the first 6 months it ate a timing belt at less than 15k miles IIRC. That took the whole top end of the engine with it at a cost of £1987.
Thankfully covered by warranty.
That was followed about 6 months later by a failed head gasket which cost about £500. Half of this cost covered by warranty.
A bit later a water house burst - behind the engine - below the induction system and above the diff. Not accesible at all without removing all of the
induction sysem which involves taking the engine off some of it's mounts. I chose to do this myself and it cost 2 days work and £25 quid for the
hose.
Once the car was up and running and I had paid half of it, I chose to exercise my rights under uk consumer law and voluntarily terminate the contract.
Never done that before and hope to never have to again. I was overjoyed the day I walked away from it after dropping it off at the car auction.
Financially it was so 'upside down' it was untrue. I owed about 6 grand on it and it was worth about 2 grand.
Goodbye Fiat - I've loved some of your cars over the years, but I hope never to return.
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