JoelP
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 08:54 AM |
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EU referendum debate, with comments!
Sorry to Frank for hijacking his thread.
I'm voting in, because nearly every point raised by the out campaign is complete nonsense.
Discuss.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 09:10 AM |
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I,m voting out as I do not want my country controlled/regulated by the other European countries.
They have their own agendas and being cynical a lot of these are absorbing as much as possible from the EU while contributing very little.
Being out does not mean we cannot trade with them, looking at the news about other stronger countries erecting fences etc I get the impression that if
we leave then we may not be the first.
With the U.Ks contribution the EU be bankrupt anyway, trade then goes back to where it started from.
Being threatened by Ohbama was just the icing on the cake.
[Edited on 2/5/16 by mark chandler]
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jeffw
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 09:20 AM |
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The EU is a unelected, un-audited, ponzi scheme. It needs to grow to survive, the next new countries will be Serbia, Albania and then Turkey. Vote
Leave and we have the opportunity to control our own destiny, Vote Remain and we will be in a European Superstate with no national control at all.
Nice to see the staunch socialist JoelP siding with David Cameron & George Osborne. I'm also impressed that Jeremy Corbyn is backing Remain
having spent his political life campaigning to leave, man of principles !
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richardm6994
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 09:22 AM |
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This referendum is just smoke and mirrors, I'm not going to waste my time listening to either arguments as they make no difference to the
result.
It's not that I don't care (quite the opposite) but if you read article 50, leaving the EU is bloody complicated, and a 'leave
agreement' must in place between all of the EU members and then this agreement has to be approved EU council.
In short, wether we vote to leave or stay, it doesn't matter because the EU has the final say.
The government have done this referendum because if we vote to stay, then they have the justification why we've not left the EU whenever the
topic arises in the future. If we vote to leave, then the EU will probably just block the exit and the government can sit back and put on a sorry face
and say 'we tried to leave but it's not our fault we're having to stay'
At the end of the day, we'll not be leaving the EU because either the referendum will finish with a 'stay' result or alternatively
the EU and its members will simply block us from leaving by not approving (or dragging out beyond reason) the severance agreement.
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jtskips
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 11:52 AM |
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Country s full, your giving our brilliant island away,the quality of the people that have emergrated compared with the people that will be
arriving here is beyond belief, once its gone its gone for good , dont get this one wrong , all my family will be voting out
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 12:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Nice to see the staunch socialist JoelP siding with David Cameron & George Osborne. I'm also impressed that Jeremy Corbyn is backing
Remain having spent his political life campaigning to leave, man of s !
Nice little false dichotomy you've made there, to pretend that anyone who opposes neoliberalism is a staunch socialist.
Here's a simple fact. Wealth naturally accumulates with the wealthy. Without intervention such as taxation, inequality will increase. Britain is
already one of the most unequal countries in the g20. The tories' policies have reduced the tax burden on the wealthiest (corporation tax,
inheritance tax and top rate income tax all help the wealthiest), and privatisations like royal mail also worsened the deficit.
If, as a country, people agree we need to spend less, I'd support things like councils not doing Christmas lights or firework displays. Cutting
disabled benefits is clearly an attack on the poor.
Do you not think it odd that there are people who need work, and work that needs doing (think teachers and nurses), and the excuse we are told is
'no money', when money is the only resource you can create at will? And at the same time, there's apparently 7 trillion dollars
stashed offshore.
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 02:14 PM |
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To those who quote sovereignty etc.:
http://infacts.org/mythbusts/uk-isnt-told/
And those who quote immigration: If EU immigration had been zero the targets set by Cameron would still have been missed. Plus if we want to stay
part of the economic zone it's highly likely we'll need to keep the free movement of people, so no net gain in that respect.
A lot of people quote national pride and a fear of becoming overwhelmed by the EU as a reason to leave - I find it ironic that they keep saying
Britain is great but then turn around and effectively say we would be assimilated into the EU. Look and France, Germany... any of the other countries;
they have kept their national identities, the idea that we would not is selling us massively short.
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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myke pocock
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 04:27 PM |
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The Agreement negotiated by Camermoron should be put on telly at prime time as the best comedy ever written. How anyone can be taken in by such
bullshit amazes me. OUT, NO DOUBT and proud of my opinion. Amongst other things its about time those who support this country fight back against
those that shout racist all the time. Its NOT racist to support your country. Amongst many other things I am sick and tired of being told we need all
these people from abroad because those in this country wont do the jobs that they are supposedly prepared to do. Is it not time we started to support
our own instead of everyone elses? AND RELAX!!!!!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 05:22 PM |
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In for me.
We live and trade in a global economy, not a national one. The UK on its own is only marginally more sensible and viable than an independent Scotland
or Wales.
Nationalism is just petty tribalism, on a slightly larger scale.
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coozer
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 06:48 PM |
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I'm out, sick to death of all the regulations imposed on my industry by an unelected bunch of self helpers.....
And, when I get the chance I'm out of the country to Tenerife to see my days out in the sun....
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Sam_68
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 06:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
And, when I get the chance I'm out of the country to Tenerife to see my days out in the sun....
Not if we're out of the EU, you're not - they won't give you a visa. 
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 08:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by coozer
And, when I get the chance I'm out of the country to Tenerife to see my days out in the sun....
Not if we're out of the EU, you're not - they won't give you a visa.
At least he didn't say he's voting out due to immigrants ! 
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 08:03 PM |
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For the record, 10-14% of British Acts of Parliament are to implement eu agreements. Regulations are a completely different issue. They say small
businesses are being strangled by red tape. I run a small business, and I couldn't pinpoint a single eu regulation that affects me.
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DRM Black7
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 08:27 PM |
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Out out out! Even if it is a messy divorce, I don't want an Eu army, I don't won't to be governed by unelected foreigners, plus many
more reasons. Hope the Uk take this chance and free ourselves 
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scudderfish
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 08:33 PM |
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It seems to me that a lot of the arguments for leaving (unelected government, economy will get better etc) are the same arguments that were made
during the Scottish referendum. However a lot of the politicians arguing to leave are those who argued against Scottish independence. What changed
their mind?
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Sam_68
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 09:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish...a lot of the politicians arguing to leave are those who argued against Scottish independence. What
changed their mind?
And at least one poster on this thread was vehemently against Scottish independence, but seems equally vehement that we'd be better off out of
Europe for nationalistic reasons.
Makes no sense to me, but then I'm not a nationalist of any shape or colour.
I do find it hypocritical that someone like Boris can claim that it was a very finely balanced and difficult decision for him, but then campaign so
definitely and vigorously once that decision has been made. Surely if it was so tough, he should continue being equivocal and balanced even if he
has decided whcih way hes going to vote himself? It smells very strongly of political opportunism and self-interest, to me.
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fha772
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 09:49 PM |
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I'm still undecided, but I'm leaning more towards out than in.
I have concerns about the Euro, and even though it isn't our currency, I feel that we will end up paying heavily to keep it propped up, because
the only way that can work is if the countries in it become more of a federal entity, rather than separate sovereign nations. But while this is
happening the EU will have to keep bailing weaker countries, like Greece, out all the time.
I believe the EU worked better as a free trade agreement between countries, that didn't get too involved in the regulation of the countries
involved. It's getting too big and cumbersome.
I don't think being out is the be all and end all, but I think it is more of an opportunity , than anything else, I'm willing to take that
risk.
It won't be easy, in fact it will be quite hard, but I think the rewards for the country in the end might be worth it.
But, I also see the advantages of staying in, I like being part of the EU, and the freedom that it gives, and I do consider myself to be a European
at heart, as much as geographically.
Like I said, I don't know yet, but I'm willing to take the risk and see what's out there.
I think what president Obama said was foolish, we have stood shoulder to shoulder with America, when other countries have run a mile, and to
completely dismiss that relationship was not a wise move.
I do think he has hurt the in campaign quite badly with that statement about being at the back of the queue. He obviously doesn't understand the
British stubborn mentality, if you say we can't it, we'll do it just to prove you wrong!!
One thing I do hope though, which ever way the vote goes, I do hope that that will be the end of it, final decision.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=6743&start=105
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JoelP
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 10:19 PM |
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The Euro is definitely a flawed idea. Individual nations cannot create money, and you need a mechanism to transfer wealth from rich regions to poor
ones. It needs major reform.
As a vaguely interesting aside, do you all know that private banks create money (or more accurately credit) when they make a loan? They specifically
do not lend you savers' or investors' money.
[Edited on 2/5/16 by JoelP]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 10:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by fha772
I have concerns about the Euro, and even though it isn't our currency, I feel that we will end up paying heavily to keep it propped up...
But this is one of the things that our Glorious Leader has managed to negotiate already, as I understand it - we already have assurances that
we won't at any stage in the future be expected to join the Euro, neither will we ever (so long as we choose to be outside it) be expected to
contribute to propping it up, and we will be refunded the money we've paid to prop it up previously.
See this link
To quote from the link:
"Mr Cameron won guarantees that countries outside the eurozone, such as Britain, will not be required to fund euro bailouts and will be
reimbursed for central EU funds used to prop up the euro.
...Mr Cameron got his explicit recognition that the EU has more than one currency."
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fha772
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 10:41 PM |
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True, but I feel that we will be left out of more and more, because we aren't part of the euro, so maybe it will be to leave, than be at the
party sat alone in the corner.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=6743&start=105
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Sam_68
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 11:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by fha772
True, but I feel that we will be left out of more and more, because we aren't part of the euro, so maybe it will be to leave, than be at the
party sat alone in the corner.
Better to be outside in the cold and rain, alone but feeling righteously miserable, rather than inside in the corner with drinks and canapes, but
no-one to talk to you mean?
Well, it's a thought, I suppose, but it does seem like cutting of your nose to spite your face?
Maybe - a bit radical, I know - we could actually choose to engage in Europe? A bit like getting up and talking to someone at your party,
rather than choosing to sit alone in the corner?
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fha772
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 11:17 PM |
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If that is our choice, but I feel it won't be our choice to make.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=6743&start=105
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Sam_68
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 11:24 PM |
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The rest of the world (not just Europe) doesn't much like us because we're arrogant and isolationist.
Your answer to Europe not liking us is to turn our back on them still further.
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fha772
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 11:33 PM |
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But why stay where you don't feel welcome?
To be honest, I'm happy to stay in, but I believe either being in or out will very hard over the next few years.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=6743&start=105
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Sam_68
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| posted on 2/5/16 at 11:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by fha772
But why stay where you don't feel welcome?
Because, realistically, we've made ourselves unwelcome pretty much everywhere.
The americans are still willing to patronise us so long as we fawn around them doing everything they ask, but since they're not one of our major
trading partners that's not much help - and even they're threatening to turn their back on us, in trade terms, if we leave the EU.
The time has come when we need a reality check on our position in the world. We've alienated just about everyone else by deluding ourselves that
we're still some sort of empire with major clout on the world stage. We need to realise that we're just a poxy little island in the North
Sea that isn't even close to being self-sufficient, even in terms of basic stuff like food, and that we can only survive if we make the
effort to get along withour neighbours.
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