dblissett
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| posted on 6/3/05 at 09:39 PM |
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2.1 pinto
i have just taken the head off my standard 2ltr pinto
when i looked at the cylinder bores its not looking good
i have quite a large step where the piston rings reach top dead center i will measure it with a mic but i am already exspeting the worst
so has anyone gone 2.1 with a pinto who did it and how much did it cost
i have seen the pistons in burtons catologue i know they need boring out but how much needs to come off the block height
this started as a cheap rebuild! 
cheers dave
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gazza285
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| posted on 6/3/05 at 09:49 PM |
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If you are worried about cost then use overbored Pinto ones. Straight swap (after boring of course) and cheaper too. The wear ridges are not really
much of a worry unless you intend to use new rings, in which case you get ridge dodger rings, which are machined to miss the wear ridge.
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clbarclay
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| posted on 6/3/05 at 09:50 PM |
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'but how much needs to come off the block height'
Why bother lowering the block (i presume your intention is to keep capcity the same) bore the liners, fit the bigger pistons etc. and enjoy the
increased capacity.
[Edited on 6/3/05 by clbarclay]
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gazza285
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| posted on 6/3/05 at 09:54 PM |
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Different compression heights on the 2.8i pistons means the compression ratio goes to pot without block changes.
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mookaloid
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| posted on 6/3/05 at 10:16 PM |
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IMHO it is quite costly to go to 2.1. you need to take 2 or 3 goes to get the bores to size, you need to skim the block and the BHP per £ spent is
nowhere near as good as spending the money on getting the head right, a good cam and say twin 45's etc.
Cheers
Mark
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clbarclay
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| posted on 6/3/05 at 10:39 PM |
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If you just get the 2.0 rebore pistons not 2.1 etc. pistons then there should be no major changes to compression ratio, if at all.
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 08:51 AM |
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to get block bored to 2.1 l and skimmed expect to pay about £80. Loads of places around that can do it so phone around for best
'reputable' quote.
If you are going to get your oversize pistons from Burtons expect to pay in excess of £100 for a set without the rings...
HTH
cheers
[Edited on 7/3/05 by DaveFJ]
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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DarrenW
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 10:02 AM |
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Dave,
Have you read Des Hammils Pinto tuning book? Well worth a read.
Cheers,
Darren.
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dblissett
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 07:40 PM |
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2.1 pinto
darren yes i have des hamils book
i like the idea of the 2.1 with fiesta diesel rods but i dont know what des means when he says that the pistons will need teflon buttons because the
guedon pin fixing is differnt in the fiesta rods
i have a 285 cam and 1.8" inlet valves
i plan to port the head at work
i can get acess to a milling machine
i also have a set of twin 40's i told the wife i needed them so nothing sticks out of the bonnet
so i have a good base spec to start with
its just that i wont to stop working on the engine and finish the car
so to go 2.1 it will cost £80 for machining £100 for the pistons and how much for the rings£50 ish so total is £230
compared to how much for a rebore with standard oversize pistons and rings
thanks dave
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gazza285
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 07:52 PM |
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Teflon buttons go at each end of the gudgeon pin to stop it moving about and scoring the bores. These are needed as I presume Pintos have gudgeon pins
that are interference fit in the rod and Fizog diesel rods use circlips in the pistons.
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 08:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dblissett
darren yes i have des hamils book
i like the idea of the 2.1 with fiesta diesel rods but i dont know what des means when he says that the pistons will need teflon buttons because the
guedon pin fixing is differnt in the fiesta rods
i have a 285 cam and 1.8" inlet valves
i plan to port the head at work
i can get acess to a milling machine
i also have a set of twin 40's i told the wife i needed them so nothing sticks out of the bonnet
so i have a good base spec to start with
its just that i wont to stop working on the engine and finish the car
so to go 2.1 it will cost £80 for machining £100 for the pistons and how much for the rings£50 ish so total is £230
compared to how much for a rebore with standard oversize pistons and rings
thanks dave
probably not a lot of difference in price, you still need new pistons which will be almost the same price and it still needs machining - I think the
saving would be minimal if any.
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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gazza285
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 08:27 PM |
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Assuming that you don't get porous bores when you take them out to 93mm. Not all Pinto blocks will take the 2.8i pistons without the castings
becoming too thin.
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dblissett
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 08:40 PM |
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2.1 pinto
mine is a 205 injection block so it will go to 93mm
it looks like i might have to dig deep and get the 2.8 pistons
i dont see the point in going to the fiesta diesel rods when its only a road car
at the end of the day its still a pinto and if i spend much more on it, it might of been better spending it on a zetec.
i also want to stay pinto for the non q plate
thanks dave
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clbarclay
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 08:46 PM |
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Once your car is registered, you can change engines to your haerts contentand not risk a Q plate.
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 08:51 PM |
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dare I suggest telling the dvla of an engine change in your donor? you did fit the zetec to the sierra donor before dismantling it?...didn't
you...errr
If the engine number on the donor v5 is the one for the zetec then you may get away with it....
not that i would suggest such dishonesty but I am sure there is someone on here that "used" a "bike engined sierra" as a
donor.....
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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dblissett
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 09:26 PM |
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2.1 pinto
i will be sticking with the pinto as i have a full stainless exhaust system ready for it
its just that i seem to be spend more and more every time i take somthing apart
when will i stop finding more faults and start rebuilding it
dave
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 7/3/05 at 09:40 PM |
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Slightly off thread, but I have been offered a 2.4 pinto out of a US Mustang - is it any use?
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
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DarrenW
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| posted on 8/3/05 at 12:27 PM |
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Dave,
One of my future projects after SVA is rebuilding to 2.1. I too am starting with the 2.0i pinto engine. I read somewhere near the beginning of the
book that the 2.0i had slightly better conrods to start with. Key word here is 'slightly' better. IIRC he says they will rev reliably to
about 300rpm more than the early rods. This means for fast road / occasional track we already have a decent base for a 2.1. 2.8 pistons, new rings,
decking (i havent read up on this yet), good oil pressure etc and you should have an engine (with twin 40's) that will give reliable 135bhp with
good torque. Better head and twin 45's or bike carbs and mappable ignition and 150bhp should be attainable. Personally i have no intention of
using new alternative rods, id rather put the money into decent bearings etc for road reliability. I think the biggest problem with the text books is
working out where to stop as there is no clear step between what is OK for the road and what is essential for race. For me torque is king, bhp just
shows potential.
Keep your eyes open on ebay etc if you are not in a hurry, there was a set of 2.8 pistons on not so long back.
Ive just done some of the head mods, although not quite as extreme. It took a while but not too hard to do. At least with injected head there is less
to remove, port throats were still restricted though. Ive fitted FR32 Kent cam with new std springs and got no problems with spring bind. Head is
skimmed (40 though) and valves / seats re-done. For now this is going onto 2.0 bottom end with 38DGAS, later to be turned into 2.1 and bike carbs /
megajolt.
HTH,
Darren.
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dblissett
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| posted on 8/3/05 at 07:29 PM |
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2.1 pinto
hello darren
the injection rods are ok up to 7000rpm with standard pistons and a extra 300rpm with forged pistons
i have decieded that to use forged pistons and holbay rods is the only way to go above 7500rpm and its not worth spending that kind of money on a road
going pinto i plan to limit the revs at 6800rpm with the megajolt
mark
i believe the 2.4 is different to a uk pinto
my thoughts are if it needs a rebore then i might as well have it bored out to 2.1 as the cost will be almost the same
i will use the injection rods and limit the revs to 6800rpm
i just want to stop taking things apart and start building somthing
cheers dave
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david walker
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| posted on 8/3/05 at 09:46 PM |
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A rare posting for me these days, but here goes: Oh and I post all prices as examples, I am not using the Forum to tout for work!
To rebore a Pinto to +.5mm, supply KS or Mahle pistons, complete with rings and fit them to your rods: £160, inclusive.
To create a 2.1 Pinto - Bore the block to 93.5 (or 94mm), from its standard bore size of 90.8mm, supply KS pistons and rings (2.8 Capri type), fit
them to your Pinto rods, deck block by the 1.4mm necessary - £210, inclusive.
To convert your kit to 2.2 you need to do the following (and I've done lots): Bore block to 94mm (no problem with 205 or 202 blocks). Offset
grind crankshaft throw taking stroke up to 80mm. This is possible by reducing big end jornal size down to that of 1600 diesel escort or fiesta rods
(note 1600 and not 1800). Use 1600 diesel rods which have to be modified by reduction in width to suit 2.8 piston at the little end and the narrower
2.0 Pinto journal. Use 2.8 Pistons and machine 2.2mm off the crown (as you now have a longer stroke and they want to poke out of the top of the
block). The gudgeon pins need shortening. Teflon buttons can be used but starve gudgeon pin of oil. Best way is to machine circlip grooves in piston
and retain pin with wire circlips - as with most race pistons and all diesels. The crankshaft assembly (crank, front pulley, flywheel) must be
dynamically balanced after this amount of work).
If you brought me a block, crank, flywheel and rods, I would machine your block, crank, pistons, gudgeon pins, rods, lighten the flywheel, balance it
all, supply the pistons, circlips and bearings for £550
The difference in performance and feel of a 2.2 from a 2.0 Pinto is unbelievable - and far better than a Zetec!
The stadium boys all rev 2.0 Pintos to 7500 minimum. The weak part is the rod, not the piston. The piston becomes suspect when incorrect ignition
timing or mixture is used.
The Diesel rods are pretty well unbreakable but the point of the 2.2 engine is to utilise its grunt rather than scream it.
There you go!
Dave Walker, Race Engine Services - 07957 454659 or 01636 671277
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garage19
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| posted on 9/3/05 at 08:31 AM |
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"and machine 2.2mm off the crown "
Surely that is going to majorly compramise the strength / reliability of the piston!!!!!!!!
Especially if it is a cast KS piston?????
I reckon you may have written this down wrong??
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dblissett
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| posted on 9/3/05 at 09:18 PM |
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2.1 pinto
hello david are you on the A46 as you go into newark
i live in gedling nottingham so its very close
i think i will go for the 2.1
i have just put a bore mic down the cylinders the worn diameter measures 90.88
and the top part wear there has been no wear is 90.85mm
david how much do you charge to ballance a lightend clutch and crank assembly
cheers dave
ps did you sell your locost in the end
[Edited on 10/3/05 by dblissett]
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david walker
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| posted on 9/3/05 at 09:54 PM |
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No, not written down wrong, 2.2mm is machined off the piston crown, and yes they are up to it.
Yep, sold the Locost, now have an old TVR - much more comfortable!
Dave - no, I am not the garage on the A46 but run my own business dealing with competition stuff only. I am closer to Gedling than Newark though. Send
me a U2U ref: the crank job.
Dave Walker, Race Engine Services - 07957 454659 or 01636 671277
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James
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 03:19 PM |
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Hi David,
Interesting stuff. Nice to see my little baby has potential! Not that I'm really planning to tune it that much- but interesting all the same.
I seem to remember reading somewhere about taking Pintos to 2.3 or even 2.4 using oversize 2.9 pistons or something. Any opinions on this? Or is it
just a good way to get through lots of engines/pounds??
Cheers,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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dblissett
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| posted on 10/3/05 at 09:59 PM |
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2.1 pinto
hello james the 2.1 is done by using the 2.8 v6 ford pistons
the 2.2 is using the same pistons but the crank stroke is increased by offset grinding the crank
this can only be done when a different conrod is used with a smaller diameter bigend (fiesta 1600 diesel) as dave walker has said in this thread
i dont know how you get to 2.4 as i think the 2.8 pistons are about the maximum diameter you can safely bore a pinto out to
i can only assume a 2.4 must use a special crank lots of money that i dont have
two kids wife etc etc
cheers dave
[Edited on 10/3/05 by dblissett]
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