coozer
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 posted on 6/5/06 at 02:55 PM |
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Fuel Line
Will standard 8mm micro bore copper pipe be OK for fuel pipe? Will it satisfy the SVA man?
I only ask because I've got loads of it in the garage.
      
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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graememk
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 03:21 PM |
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i hope so as thats what i've used.
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Peteff
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 03:32 PM |
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Yes it will.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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R1minimagic
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 04:00 PM |
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Are you using carbs or injection?
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coozer
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 posted on 6/5/06 at 04:11 PM |
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Will be carbs, cant afford anything new enough to have injection... lol
GSXR 1100 engine CR flatslides, hopefully.
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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MikeR
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 04:44 PM |
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most people seem to use it.
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R1minimagic
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 07:46 PM |
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Should be ok with carbs but i wouldnt use it on injection motors
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MikeR
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 08:05 PM |
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why not, i was planning to when i upgrade from carbs to injection to re-use the lines.
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wilkingj
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 09:34 PM |
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I used 8mm copper, and covered it with Split convoluted tubing from my local Lucas (LSUK) depot. Cheaper than buying it from a
"specialist" (read high priced) kit car place.
Covering it will help stop corrosion.
In hindsight I would have painted it in waxoyl as well
Also keep the pipes well above the bottom of the transmission tunnel line, so it wont get crushed if you bottom the car on a bumpy road.
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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Hellfire
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| posted on 6/5/06 at 10:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by R1minimagic
Should be ok with carbs but i wouldnt use it on injection motors
Why ever not?????
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darrens
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 06:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
quote:
Originally posted by R1minimagic
Should be ok with carbs but i wouldnt use it on injection motors
Why ever not?????
second that, why ever not?? Hope it's OK, cos Ive used it
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DIY Si
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 10:33 AM |
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My kunifer pipe is rated at twice what the TUV want, so if ze germans are happy with it so am I.
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R1minimagic
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 12:01 PM |
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Copper is the worst metal for causing injector deposits. Very low ppm levels of copper will dissolve into the fuel and cause gums etc to build up on
your injectors. Over time you will lose power, engine will become smokier and eventually have to change the injectors. The more modern the engine,
the worse the situation, as the injector holes become smaller and smaller to improve emissions and fuel economy. Not so much of a problem with carbs
as the orifices are larger. In my opinion, it is not worth scrimping to save a few pounds just because you have some lying around the garage. In the
long run, you might end up regretting it!!
Also, as injection engines use a higher fuel pressure and therefore a fuel return line back to the tank, the fuel flow rates are much higher. This
will lead to a greater level of copper leaching into the fuel with injection engines.
Using an injector cleaner could help, but it is better not to use copper pipes in the first place..
I am sorry if i have caused any panic here, but thought it best to let people know what can happen.
[Edited on 7/5/06 by R1minimagic]
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MikeR
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 01:04 PM |
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Interesting, you might want to tell the people at PPC (Practical Performance Car). They've been making fuel rails out of domestic 15mm copper
pipe. I was thinking of doing the same when i convert to FI.
Looks like i'll have to use the (BMW) mini fuel lines my mate got me from his work.
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R1minimagic
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 01:20 PM |
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Doesn't sound good, the fuel in the rail will be hotter than the fuel in the tank, so even more potential for contamination!!
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MikeR
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 01:26 PM |
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don't want to sound rude but .......
have you got any evidence of this?
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R1minimagic
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 01:34 PM |
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I am a R&D chemist for a fuel additives company. I do lots of engine testing with various fuels and additives so it is my job to know this stuff.
There is loads of evidence on the web if you search for it.
Most major fuel marketers are searching for additives to deactivate/remove copper from fuel, they wouldnt do that without a good reason!!
Check here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_deactivator
[Edited on 7/5/06 by R1minimagic]
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darrens
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 03:17 PM |
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point taken, but I'm sure this effect is going to be over years not months (obviously all depends on usage)
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MikeR
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 03:33 PM |
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Thanks, just wondering if it was a case of something you over heard someone in the pub saying or if you've got some qualification. Think you
probably fall into the latter category
So any idea of speed of the effect? Our cars aren't used much, just wondering if it is something we'll encounter over 10 years, 5 years or
next year.
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R1minimagic
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 04:14 PM |
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Thats a difficult one to answer!
As copper is not used as a material for fuel lines by OEM's there is not much to go off. Variables such as fuel quality, fuel temperature,
detergent level, lubricity level etc all play their part, not to mention differences in fuel injector design and fuel filters used. That's the
problem with kit cars, everyone has a different setup!!
The only real way to test the effect is to have your fuel injectors flow tested but you would have to compare "like with like" systems
where the only difference is the copper fuel line... and I imagine its expensive to get a flow test carried out. All i can say is that work i have
been involved with shows that very low levels of metals (ie ppm and ppb) can cause severe problems with modern fuel injectors. Typical power losses
due to injector fouling can be more than 10% in less than 100 hours.
I think the best way to put your mind at rest is to not use copper tubing. Here is another forum thread that i found about copper fuel lines in
vehicles using biodiesel/vegetable oil fuel. This type of fuel is far more severe than petrol as it contains a higher level of 'free
acids' which accelerate copper leaching into the fuel.
http://www.greasecar.com/forum_topicview.cfm?frmtopicID=1225
Enjoy!!!
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paulf
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 08:46 PM |
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Can you advise me whether any lead replacement additves are safe to use in an engine fitted with an oxygen sensor?.Ive asked this question before ,and
rung around some of the additive manufacturers and not got a definitive answer.My car is a crossflow with a leaded head but running megasquirt
injection , I have been running on super unleaded whilst setting up using an oxygen sensor, but would like to be able to add some valve seat
protection.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by R1minimagic
I am a R&D chemist for a fuel additives company. I do lots of engine testing with various fuels and additives so it is my job to know this stuff.
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MikeR
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| posted on 7/5/06 at 11:32 PM |
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Spoke to my mate who designs fuel systems for a living. He started off by asking me what the hell i was doing with copper when he'd given me
those Insert-word-of-special-fuel-pipe-alloy-i-can't-remember-here pipes. I explained and he said .....
"yeah, its a problem, why do you think we now use that special alloy?"
So, two independent sources saying the same thing. Looks like a few people are going to be getting a smidgen worried.
Just a bit miffed i can't use it to make my fuel rail up when i go FI!
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DarrenW
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| posted on 8/5/06 at 09:09 AM |
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Steve - i used Mac#1 supplied braided hose for the fuel lines. I think it was supplied with the kit, if not its not too expensive, dead easy to work
with and looks great.
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irvined
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| posted on 8/5/06 at 01:00 PM |
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I used 8mm standard copper pipe and SVA guy didnt bat an eyelid.
HTH
David
http://irvined.blogspot.com
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MikeR
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| posted on 8/5/06 at 05:43 PM |
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you're on a carb, you'll be fine.
Its still a SVA pass, its just long term FI worry.
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