NS Dev
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 posted on 4/12/06 at 11:31 AM |
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Argghhhh thoroughly fed up with engine descisions!!!!!!
Right!
I'm seeking advice to preserve sanity now!!!
I am in the initial stages of building my new grasstrack car - an unlimited saloon class car.
My ORIGINAL idea was to use a turbocharged car engine, with the turbo removed and a positive displacement blower on it instead. The two options were
Saab 9000 2.3 turbo and Volvo T5.
The former was more compact, and very tough, but its gearbox (GM one) rather weak and with none too suitable ratios.
The latter was again very strong, makes good power, and has a gearbox capable of taking 350-400hp in std form apparently. Downside is it is large,
heavy, and worst of all, needs an expensive engine management system to be able to fire the 5 cyl, coil on plug arrangement.
My NEW and CURRENT idea is to use 2 Aprilia RSV Mille Factory R v-twin 1000cc bike engines. These are 140hp each, dry sumped, rev to 11,000rpm and
have really useable power from 4000 to 10,500 rpm, so ideal for grasstrack racing.
What I am rapidly discovering is that what is MUCH less than ideal is the fact that on 2004 onwards european Factory models (i.e. those with the
"V60 magnesium" engine) the std ECU is chip coded to the bike's key, which I don't have for either engine. The breaker that
supplied them assures me he can get non-coded ones from the USA, but this is seeming to be difficult (1 month with no joy so far)
I CAN use an aftermarket system, but nobody can guarantee that megasquirt can be made to work, even those that run the MS n Extra forum and produce
mega boxes in bulk, due to the odd fire setup of the engine. There are aftermarket systems that will work with it, (DTA P60) but these are £800 a
piece and I need two!!! These are the same ecu's that I would have needed only one of to run the 5 cyl volvo engine!
I also then have the chain drive to sort on the bike engine arrangement, though this is do-able, if not easy.
The V60 magnesium engines seem to fetch around a grand on ebay (i.e. twice what i payed) the dilemma is now do I sell them on and go with the 5 cyl
s/c volvo option if it will fit in the fiat 126 bodyshell, or do I persevere with the bike engines??
what do you lot reckon?
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 11:36 AM |
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I would persevere with the bike engines if it was me , can maybe someone on the forum from the us help out, what about getting ecus with matched keys
from this country?
could mal at yorkshire engines help out?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 11:40 AM |
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Funnily enough Paul at Bikebits-R-us who got me the engines has asked Mal to get the ecu's, but I think he is struggling at the mo!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 11:55 AM |
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i posted in the wanted section nat, did you want my t slot table?
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MikeR
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:01 PM |
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I've seen recently that MS will fire 5 cylinder engines - not sure which version, was looking something else up.
(i know we looked into MS before which is why it caught my attention).
what about pre-2004 ecu's will they not work? might be easier to source those.
Can you not take the ECU's to the dealer to get them programmed. Explain what you are doing, with pictures, reciepts for the engines to prove
they are not stolen bikes. They must be able to help - what if someone looses a key?
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Kissy
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:08 PM |
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Can't you convert the Aprilias to MS&S? Leaves you total flexibility and removes the issue of getting round the key.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:16 PM |
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No, can't convert to Mega-anything. The engines are odd-fire, and whilst I believe there are a couple of chaps worldwide that have done it, it
will need new code writing to use the Aprilia crank trigger and cam trigger and odd-fire setup.
It could probably be done using a v12 wasted spark setup as this will have the correct firing angles but will cost best part of £300 per box, and £600
is a lot to spend on something that might not work.
I also had it cofirmed at the weekend that the mega software is far from easy to use when it comes to rolling road tuning!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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iank
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:25 PM |
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What about emerald? Bit cheaper than DTA, and they have the capability of doing special developments if their ECU can't support something and
you can raise their interest level - would probably get into PPC as well 
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trogdor
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:30 PM |
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well i am not sure if its mega jolt or mega squirt but i know one of them can support odd firing, i am sure i have read that somewhere.
I would say that it would be megajolt, i am sure in the software there is an option of cylinder numbers and whether its odd or even fire.
admittaly megajolt is only sparks and not fuel, so sure how helpful that is.
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RazMan
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:35 PM |
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I would have thought that many of the aftermarket ecu's would be configurable as long as the engines were taken back to basics - my V6 had no
end of gizmos as standard and I just took them all off until I was left with just the crank sensor.
Is there anything stopping you going this route?
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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trogdor
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:38 PM |
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well i have had a look on both the megasquirt and megajolt site, i have found that the tuning software megatune does allow different cylinder numbers
and odd or even fire so i don't see why u can't use this ecu?
i guess i must be missing something as u have already asked on the forums, so they would obviously know better.
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procomp
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:43 PM |
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Hi nat have a word with emerald either dave or carl.
cheers matt
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ecosse
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:47 PM |
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As Megaspark apparently supports odd fire (not personal knowledge, but plenty google links say so), couldn't you use that with a set of bike
carbs, which are easily sourced and cheap?
Cheers
Alex
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chriscook
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 12:48 PM |
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If you are refering to the comments I made I was talking about the MegaJolt software - of which there is a new version out which looks a lot
better.
It is/was also completely unrelated to the Megatune software for the various incarnations of Megasquirt.
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
I also had it cofirmed at the weekend that the mega software is far from easy to use when it comes to rolling road tuning!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ecosse
As Megaspark apparently supports odd fire (not personal knowledge, but plenty google links say so), couldn't you use that with a set of bike
carbs, which are easily sourced and cheap?
Cheers
Alex
Well this is the interesting thing!
I would be interested in just that very option, but nobody, including the chap that wrote the article on odd fire on the mSnextra site, has actually
done it or run a setup on it.
There is 1 chap that has run a ducati on it but he wrote his own code entirely from scratch.......which I cannot do!
Both Philip Ringwood and another chap who's name escapes me who seem to be the brains behind the msextra code have shied away from running the
aprilia on it.
A lot of research has gone on behind this, but the closest we have got is using a v12 wasted spark setup to do the ignition, as it has spark events at
60 degree intervals..........
prob is then revs, apparently it is doubtful that the mega v3 will work v12 wasted spark at 11,000 rpm without problems????
Chris - didn't realise that, but do want some software that is easy to use on any rolling road as I think I may well be spending some time
there.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi nat have a word with emerald either dave or carl.
cheers matt
Hi Matt,
called them today but only as far as the secretary (never had one of them when i dealt with emerald years ago, they have come up in the world !!!! )
and she said to put it all on an email.
Done that and will follow up with a call tomorrow.
cheers
Nat
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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02GF74
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:24 PM |
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firstly I don't know what odd fire is but megasquirt is software so should be able to handle one engine (and even both).
Using water spark, one cylinder will firte on ig. and ex and the other one will be some number of crank degress before or after the other one, agian
wasted spark so should not interfere with the other.
If you arrange the secon engine to be 180 degree with, then the wasted spark will be on the comp stroke - the final cylinde will need to have its own
coil so you have like a 3 cylinder engine - cylinder one fiures 2 cylinders, the other 3 are separate. - dunno if that makes snece, but like I say, I
am not sure what you mean by odd firing .
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jimgiblett
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:47 PM |
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What is the reason why the OE ECU won't work? I was looking at a T5 for a powerplant and the breaker I spoke too said the early 850 T5s werent
too difficult to get running with the OE ECU (with perhaps some piggy back arrangement but the latter V70s were much more hassle.
Is the T5 motor really that heavy (I know it has an extra pot but it's an all alloy block)?
Cheers
Jim
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:49 PM |
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I'm running one ecu per engine, running both from one is not poss due to cranks not being directly connected.
Odd fire means you can't just wait the same number of degrees basically.
The Aprilia fires (in terms of TDC) at alternatively 420 and 300 degrees of crank rotation due to its single throw crank and 60 deg v format.
No doubt possible, and "just software" but if Phil Ringwood says he would be worried about trying it (and has now appealed for info on the
msextra forum on this subject! ) then considering he is the UK authority on the subject I'm going to struggle!
If it was for a fun, locost car then no probs, but there's nothing worse than fighting with faults when you are trying to race.
Also nothing worse than knackering a very nice engine through a simple programming fault
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jimgiblett
What is the reason why the OE ECU won't work? I was looking at a T5 for a powerplant and the breaker I spoke too said the early 850 T5s werent
too difficult to get running with the OE ECU (with perhaps some piggy back arrangement but the latter V70s were much more hassle.
Is the T5 motor really that heavy (I know it has an extra pot but it's an all alloy block)?
Cheers
Jim
Ah, most of the discussion is around the Aprilia (Rotax-Siemens-VDO) ecu not the Volvo one.
I doubt the volvo one will like the settings required for 350-400hp, and will certainly be a pain to map up on the rollers.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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ecosse
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 02:52 PM |
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Excuse me thinking out loud here:
But, while I'm not sure how the Aprilia key system works, most cars (okay the ones i have worked on ) have a sensor next to the ignition
barrel which does the key verification and sends a signal to the ECU to say okay when the right key is inserted.
if this is also the case with the Aprilia system would it be possible, as with some cars, to either bypass or hack the sensor part so that it always
sends the okay signal, or at least doesn't send the dont start one?
Or is this a non starter (Sorry couldn't help that )
Cheers
Alex
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 03:04 PM |
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that could be a goer, but trying to find somebody to do it that is legit may be harder!!
Also I need to bin several ecu functions like tank vapour bleed, idle control valve etc etc which I am not sure the ecu will like.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 03:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ecosse
Excuse me thinking out loud here:
But, while I'm not sure how the Aprilia key system works, most cars (okay the ones i have worked on ) have a sensor next to the ignition
barrel which does the key verification and sends a signal to the ECU to say okay when the right key is inserted.
if this is also the case with the Aprilia system would it be possible, as with some cars, to either bypass or hack the sensor part so that it always
sends the okay signal, or at least doesn't send the dont start one?
Alex
It's not that simple, the RFID sensor doesn't send a 'go'/'no go' signal. A system like that would be trivialy
easy to bypass. Instead it sends the unique serial code of the RFID tag embedded within the key to the ECU which decides if the key is valid or not.
This is why you need a matching ECU and key, or at least need to have the ECU programmed to match the key.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 03:41 PM |
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Think my mind is made up, got to buy 2 new proper ECU's, so take a look here if ya want some proper XE power for your
seven....................
XE + throttle bodies + MBE ecu etc etc
yep I'm pulling it apart and selling the bits!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 4/12/06 at 04:00 PM |
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can't you get an aprilla agent to provide keys for you, surely this is a goer, what happens if you lost the keys to you aprilla bike??
might cost a few quid, though not as much as 2 ecus
[Edited on 4/12/06 by liam.mccaffrey]
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