dilley
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 05:18 PM |
|
|
bec vs cec
Before you say.............
right then......
if you had an indy running a blackbird turbo engine producing 240bhp at the wheels and weighing 720 kg's with driver plus a passenger, against a
westfield 4ltr v8 (tvr)running 225bhp at the wheels and weighing 725kgs with just a driver,
both cars would weigh roughly the same and have a 15 bhp difference,
would there be alot in it??????
handling wise I would imagine would be close as the westfield would have a slightly better chassis and both cars would weigh the same.
opinions...............................
[Edited on 2/6/07 by dilley]
|
|
|
|
|
StevieB
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 05:30 PM |
|
|
 This'll be a long thread...
|
|
|
dilley
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 05:31 PM |
|
|
I have never been ina v8 westfield, just wondering what they are like.
perhaps rusty nuts could take me for a spin in his luego so I can see the difference between bec and cec.
[Edited on 2/6/07 by dilley]
|
|
|
zxrlocost
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 05:37 PM |
|
|
Bouldy has a v8 indy and it is very powerful however once youve had a turbo bird I dont think a v8 feels as good
its not just to do with that its to do with gearing aswell etc etc unsprung weight etc
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
oliwb
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 05:43 PM |
|
|
Car engine, unless someone has spent serious money on the turbo bike engine??? Got to remember about turbo lag etc. Not sure there'd be a lot
in the handling department......Oli.
If your not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room!
|
|
|
higgsti
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 05:44 PM |
|
|
cant see a turbo indy weighing that much ,v8s are front heavy so handling would be better on bec
|
|
|
dilley
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 05:54 PM |
|
|
turbo bec deffo weighs that as I built it!!
those weights are with boddies in the cxar around 100kgs each.
[Edited on 2/6/07 by dilley]
|
|
|
DIY Si
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 06:01 PM |
|
|
If you were to make it a bit fairer and put a passenger in the V8, IMHO the turbo indy would probably have it. Handling wise again, the lighter weight
of the turbo indy would have to give it an edge, also it'd probably be better balanced.
And don't forget, you have more power to use if things get tight!
There is also the sound track to consider, but that's personal preference. I like lots of revs, some like a nice V8 burble .
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
|
|
|
Ivan
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 06:07 PM |
|
|
Now I'm going to put my foot right in it.
Basically it's all about work - i.e horsepower which is a reflection of torque against revs.
i.e. For the same bhp the higher reving engine with lower torque will win every time.
There's very good science to this statement and it explains why the relatively puny (torque wise and capacity wise) bec's accelerate so
fast.
Of course weight counts as well.
|
|
|
cossiebri
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 06:20 PM |
|
|
The actual gearchange will be faster in the bec too
If it doesn't fit MODIFY it!!
Cheers BriF
|
|
|
StevieB
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 06:26 PM |
|
|
Plus the BEC will be a lot cheaper too!
I like a good car engine - one day I'd like a se7en with a well tuned cross flow with twin webers etc (there's just something right about
the whole idea). But to get the bbest from the engine, you need to spend a lot more getting it (of course, a blown bird will probably have the same
lifespan as the oil in the V8!)
|
|
|
DIY Si
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 06:31 PM |
|
|
Just a quick word about bec torque. BECs have a primary ratio that car engines are missing, so the torque goes through a 30-50% increase before it
hits the main gearbox. Wheel torque is probably not much different.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
|
|
|
Simon
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 06:35 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by cossiebri
The actual gearchange will be faster in the bec too
Stock T56 in this, so I doubt bike will be much quicker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IOpuGVoyCk
ATB
Simon
|
|
|
DIY Si
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 06:39 PM |
|
|
And his engine will last a relatively long time, as it's built to withstand 26 psi, yet only runs at 12 (IIRC) to give it a nice long life.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
|
|
|
rusty nuts
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 07:35 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by dilley
I have never been ina v8 westfield, just wondering what they are like.
perhaps rusty nuts could take me for a spin in his luego so I can see the difference between bec and cec.
[Edited on 2/6/07 by dilley]
Mines only a mildly tuned crossflowbut your welcome as regards a spin in it but wait until after July 12th when its due to be set up properly.
|
|
|
OX
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 07:35 PM |
|
|
i think the turbo bird would be harder to drive as quick as the westy but i would of said the t bird would stay ahead.
|
|
|
mark chandler
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 07:37 PM |
|
|
Well for my thee pennies worth BEC on a short circuit, maybe CEC on one with long long straights.
If you look at old results on various race series a 4ltr westfield is not any faster than an 893 blade powered car although its giving away twice the
power.
Okay so you are adding weight to the bec but its going to pull away on most corners with that long flat torque spread.
|
|
|
froggy
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 07:54 PM |
|
|
book yourself a demo at westfield and they will take you out in their 330 weber fed seight .ive got no track experience but the v8 would be a much
nicer car for road use.
|
|
|
dilley
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 08:28 PM |
|
|
I know the becturbo is quick, really quick, it makes the ultima look silly to 100mph, I need a ride in a v8 westy.
|
|
|
chockymonster
|
| posted on 2/6/07 at 09:21 PM |
|
|
If the westie is TVR powered will it make it to the first corner without breaking down?
PLEASE NOTE - Responses on Forum Threads may contain Sarcasm and may not be suitable for the hard of Thinking.
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 3/6/07 at 09:06 AM |
|
|
Why on earth would they weigh the same? How can the bird engined car be so heavy - I'm carrying 2 engines & still come out around 120kg
lighter????
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
Hellfire
|
| posted on 3/6/07 at 12:31 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Why on earth would they weigh the same? How can the bird engined car be so heavy - I'm carrying 2 engines & still come out around 120kg
lighter????
If you read the first post, the Blackbird Turbo is carrying a passenger (approx 100kg) whereas the V8 Westy has no passenger.
Phil
|
|
|
procomp
|
| posted on 4/6/07 at 08:14 AM |
|
|
Hi why compare the bird to a V8. Look at the 750mc results for acctual lap times to get a clearer picture.
Locost 1300 x/flow with 90 hp. Will be about 5-6 sec a lap slower than the kitcars below.
Kitcars 155hp 1800 zetec is on a par with a 260 hp V8 and a 175 hp 1600 zetec se. Give or take various circuit configurations.
RGB a blade engine will be about 1-2sec's a lap quicker than the above kitcars. A busa ect will be another 2-3 sec a lap quicker than the
blade.
Now i dont have acctual varified records of it but a kitcar with a 210 hp 2.0 zetec is on a par with the busa on lap times .
All the above time will have been set by compatent drivers who are at the front of thier various championships so a fair comparison on driver
abilities. Although the engines are all in different cars from various manufacturers given that again these are front running cars in championships
it will again be fair to say that they are all in a fine state of handelling.
Now all you have to do is go and work out how much it really costs to achive the state of tune for each engine. ( which will start an other debate all
together)
cheers matt
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 4/6/07 at 09:10 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
...
Kitcars 155hp 1800 zetec is on a par with a 260 hp V8 and a 175 hp 1600 zetec se. Give or take various circuit configurations.
...
cheers matt
Well to the overall question, why would you care? On the road they will both be a lot of fun (if in different ways) and it's a matter of taste
which you'd pick. On the racetrack pick a series and choose the best engine based on the regulations.
On procomp's post I've have got a question...
155bhp 1800 Zetec is on a par with 175bhp 1600 ZetecSE.
As the ZetecSE is much lighter and 20bhp up is it purely a (small?) additional amount of torque making up the difference by stretching the gear
ratio's. If so that makes the Zetec a better choice for the road as well as it's easier to drive?
Also given that it's a rover v8 and therefore (wild guess) 50% heavier than the Zetec it seems to need a mountain of power to keep up. Is this
the 'too much torque' argument?
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
dilley
|
| posted on 4/6/07 at 02:08 PM |
|
|
Im just comparing really, remember both cars weigh the same!!!!!
|
|
|
.JPG)
.jpg)
