procomp
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 07:13 AM | |
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Hi
Now you see you just do not get it it at all really. You see what i am trying to do is get those people who are genuinely interested in going to the
trouble of setting there cars up. To At least do it so they end up with results that worthy of the time money and effort spent. If you actualy had
any idea about how i operate you would know that i spend an awful lot of time helping people with handling issues with there cars and that taking
money of them it certainly not my priority. It is just a case that i personally think that if a job is worth doing it is worth doing right. And that
dose not mean chucking money that is not in a persons budjet at the problem. And if you actualy bothered to read what i had said in this thread which
was that there would be people who would have professional corner weight scales within an hours drive. Maybe we should start a data base of people who
do have this sort of equipment and are prepared to help forum members. as it is simply not just as you put it companies but also many motoring clubs
regional area groups ect and many small race / rally teams.
You on the other hand seem to have this logic that when ever i make a comment ( In your own words. Even if it is fact based ) it is your job to have
an argument. Which given the emails and u2u's i have had means you are quite frankly weeing a lot of people off by simply just arguing rather
than actualy having somthing constructive to say without any knowledge of the topic.
So here we are again another recked thread that could well have been useful info. Brilliant.
PS i did read your offer in your U2U.
Cheers Matt
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mr henderson
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 07:45 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
Now you see you just do not get it it at all really.
The thing is, Matt, that your argument against the use of bathroom scales in this context stands or falls entirely on one issue, and that is whether
or not they are sufficiently accurate.
You say they are not, and I say that if carefully chosen, and tested, they are.
So there we have it.
Problem for you is that, earlier in this thread, you said that .5kgs was sufficiently accurate. For those of us that think in lbs, that's about
1lb.
I invite anyone with a reasonably decent set of scales in their bathroom to first of all place the scales on a hard, level surface, then try
weighing themselves, then to have someone pass them something that weighs 500gms, and see if the scales registers it.
If they do, then the bathroom scales method is sufficiently accurate, and if they don't, then it isn't. Simple as that.
On the other point about your motives in rubbishing locost methods of setting up cars, well I realise of course that you wouldn't dream of
saying anything here that might benefit your car manufacturing and setting up business, especially as you are not a registered trader (or even a
contributor, for that matter). I'm mean, for instance, that you wouldn't ever say anything derogatory about other manufacturers products,
or make snide remarks about people using locost methods to set up their cars.
I see you've been getting U2U's as well. It's a shame that people who send them to you, and those that send them to me, don't
make their support public.
If anyone is wondering why Matt is continuing this argument (which includes me) the U2U I sent him was an offer that if he deleted all of his
contributions to this thread, then I would delete all of mine, this bringing this tiresome and pointless argument to a close. It's a shame he
has chosen not to do this, and I am glad I can now prove that I made that offer last night.
Cheers, John
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 07:57 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
I invite anyone with a reasonably decent set of scales in their bathroom to first of all place the scales on a hard, level surface, then try
weighing themselves, then to have someone pass them something that weighs 500gms, and see if the scales registers it.
Again you have missed the point that whilst an individual scale might be good enough to resolve 0.5kg, you would have to repeat this on 8 separate
scales, ensuring that each scale registered not only the same starting weight, but the same increase in weight. And again, I suggest the chances of
getting such a well matched set of scales when you are paying peanuts for chinese built items is slim to none.
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mr henderson
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 08:06 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by mr henderson
I invite anyone with a reasonably decent set of scales in their bathroom to first of all place the scales on a hard, level surface, then try
weighing themselves, then to have someone pass them something that weighs 500gms, and see if the scales registers it.
Again you have missed the point that whilst an individual scale might be good enough to resolve 0.5kg, you would have to repeat this on 8 separate
scales, ensuring that each scale registered not only the same starting weight, but the same increase in weight. And again, I suggest the chances of
getting such a well matched set of scales when you are paying peanuts for chinese built items is slim to none.
And I suggest that if carefully chosen and tested, the chances are quite good. I have done this in the past, using scales that I paid £10 each for,
and got good, repeatable results.
If and when I need to do this again, then this is the route I will take. Others can choose to do the same, or they can choose to pay someone else to
do it for them, it's all a matter of choice. People must make up their own minds and make their own experiments.
My only aim was to point out that the bathroom scales method is indeed viable and useful locost method of obtaining useful results, as long as care is
taken.
John
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procomp
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 08:21 AM | |
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Hi
The reason i have continued this is because it shows that a set of professional setup scales giving an accuracy of 0.5KG over 4 scales is a darn
sight more accurate than a set of bathroom scales as some people on here seem to be able to grasp. Where as you clearly do not. As i have said unless
you are going to do the job properly with accurate results there is no point doing it.
And the other thread by Welderman clearly shows that people can get there cars setup / corner weighted for as little as FOC albeit at the cost of a
sushi dinner in return  .
Ps when you do purchase your bathroom scales. How much are you going to charge to corner weight a car.
Cheers Matt
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 08:32 AM | |
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I think your final comment is a bit out of order
tony
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Frosty
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 08:47 AM | |
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I'm sure that bathroom scales are accurate enough in isolation, but I think that when you balance loads across 2 of them using wood or something
similar, you would see varied results.
Every set of bathroom scales I have ever used to weigh myself has varied by half a stone just based on where you stand. If you stand at the edge or in
the middle it will vary, and you have no way of controlling this when using wood to spread load over two.
As for the comments on procomp's "self promotion", this is very unfair to suggest. Not so long ago I helped a good friend on here
set up his MK Indy and put a post up for some help relating to bushes.
Procomp then took the time to write me a big long message about things to look out for on the car, and due to the inaccuracy of the entry-level
Protech shocks, even offered to balance them.
When asked how much this would cost, he did not want any money at all as long as we arranged collection and delivery. Once the shocks were returned,
he would not even accept a drink as payment which I think is incredibly generous.
It seems to me that as long as people are genuinely interested in setting up a car and understanding what makes things work, procomp is more than
happy to offer his input and advise.
He's doing exactly that in this thread, and being gunned down for it 
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mr henderson
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 11:19 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by Frosty
I'm sure that bathroom scales are accurate enough in isolation, but I think that when you balance loads across 2 of them using wood or something
similar, you would see varied results.
Well that's exactly how I used to use them, and I experimented with weighing various items (mostly V8 engines and gearboxes) and the results
were always within 1%, even when removing the weight, trying something else, then returning to the original item. Maybe I just got lucky with the
scales I chose to buy, I remember them being the most expensive of the spring scales that Argos were offering at the time (about 8 years ago) at
around £10.
The problem with moving around on the scales and getting different results is usually (I'm not saying this is the case with yours) due to
flexible flooring often found in bathrooms, and flexible pressed steel top surface of the scales themselves.
This problem is sufficiently reduced by using a hard surface base and a reasonably stiff board across the two scales. Something like 18mm ply is
ideal.
Having each wheel on a board across two scales also allows the car to be rolled backwards and forwards during the process.
quote:
Originally posted by Frosty
As for the comments on procomp's "self promotion", this is very unfair to suggest. Not so long ago I helped a good friend on here
set up his MK Indy and put a post up for some help relating to bushes.
Procomp then took the time to write me a big long message about things to look out for on the car, and due to the inaccuracy of the entry-level
Protech shocks, even offered to balance them.
When asked how much this would cost, he did not want any money at all as long as we arranged collection and delivery. Once the shocks were returned,
he would not even accept a drink as payment which I think is incredibly generous.
It seems to me that as long as people are genuinely interested in setting up a car and understanding what makes things work, procomp is more than
happy to offer his input and advise.
He's doing exactly that in this thread, and being gunned down for it
Gunned down? I don't think so. I think he is the only one that has let loose with a personal remark of the insulting nature.
As far as the self promotion is concerned, I'm sure we can all put forward examples of where commercial enterprises have let products or
services go FOC from time to time, doesn't mean they're not running profit making businesses.
I wouldn't have mentioned it at all if it wasn't for him continually attacking other companies on this forum. He's had goes at MK,
MNR and Mac, and made a snide remark about the use of the bathroom scales method put forward by another forum member.
He seems to think that if he keeps repeating that the method isn't accurate enough that he will have proven his point. The problem is that
repetiton doesn't prove anything, and when his point doesn't 'hold any water' anyway, then he might as well not bother.
It's not just me and Mad Butcher that says this method works, by the way, anyone who is interested might like to try googling- corner weight
bathroom scales.
Anyway, I'm sure we are all getting tired of this now, and perhaps we should leave it to the readers to decide whether the method is worth
investigating or not.
John
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procomp
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 02:29 PM | |
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Hi
So in your own words there you are saying that whilst weighing an engine / box around the 300 kg mark shall we say and maybe you where lucky you got
to 1%. You really just do not seem to be able to grasp the fact that that tolerance just is not accurate enough for corner weighting. You say i keep
repeating this thats because as i said earlier those that have done back to back testing have found simalar tolerances with bathroom scales and found
it to be to far out when tested. You keep repeating that this is an acceptable tolerance but i ask have you ever done any serious testing with cars
corner weighted to this tolerance and then had the car setup properly as back to back testing. Any one who has will tell you there is a marked
difference. And it's a difference that is well worth having if taking the setup of your car remotely seriously.
You keep banging on about £80 worth of bathroom scales yet when i pointed you in the direction of a lever type gauge that can be brought brand new for
as little as £120 you still threw it back in my face as a waste of time compared to your bathroom scales.
If you really want to do it locost style why not have a search for the article that shows how to corner weight with balance beams etc. even that is an
awful lot of work to go to compared to a £120 gauge and as the scale will cost you at least 3/4 of that price.
Again you are continually going on about comments i make regarding others products. As you have already said before they are FACT based comments and
are comments made that help people see problems that they are encountering or they can avoid. Maybe you think it is perfectly OK for a manufacturer to
sell a chassis kit That they claim is the best. Which dose not actualy legally pass the SVA / IVA test and they then tell you to illegally bodge it to
get through. Maybe you think it is OK for a manufacturer to sell a kit that has not even been engineered safely and is likely to cause serious harm
when it goes wrong possibly even death if the worst was to happen.
Lets take your friend here Madbutcher. Is it right that he has had to buy wishbones from an other source just to get his car to Handel as it should
have origanly. Just because the kit he built was so shockingly bad in manufacture in the first place. The point is when these manufacturers start to
turn out products that are of a decent quality i will gladly stand up and say that i think they are good quality and i will then recommend them. But
as it is when these problems are being discussed by others i see no reason to not comment on what is already a known problem whilst offering help to
people who are trying to overcome these problems.
Cheers Matt
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mr henderson
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 05:45 PM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
(various stuff, read it above)
Cheers Matt
How can we bring this frankly quite boring argument to a close?
As I understand it your position is that corner weighting a car with bathroom scales, using the method described above, and with the provisos I have
mentioned, is so inaccurate as to be a complete waste of time?
My position, on the other hand, is that it is not innaccurate at all, and although maybe not as good as a purpose made set of digital scales is indeed
useful and sufficiently accurate to be a worthwhile exercise for those who wish or need to use that method as opposed to the one you describe.
How about that? Does that statement, while not settling the argument, at least set out our differing positions on ii fairly?
Can we agree to differ, and let the readers decide for themselves?
I hope so
John
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MikeR
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 06:42 PM | |
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Ok, i'm going to dive in here a little.
Many years ago I bought 8 sets of scales from a well known supermarket that was selling them off cheap. The logic was one day I'd want to have a
go at corner weighing my car. [cough] years later I still do want to do this and will when its finished.
I realised quite quickly that bathroom scales aren't that accurate. I did a simple test. I set each one to zero and stood on it. Depending on
how accurately I was standing directly over the scales it gave a slight difference in value - the pointer is a little away from the scale so if
i'm a little to the left I see the value a little to the right. So I resolved to be careful and be really really right above the scale.
I noticed not every scale read the same. Being utterly convinced in the 30 seconds it took to move one scale from being in front of me to another I
hadn't lost weight I decided the scales where wrong (I didn't take any back - perhaps I should and the ones I got cost less than £10). Oh
and no comments about a bad workman and his tools .....
To help me test the scales I set them all to zero and stood on each one a number of times. They always read the same. So I deduced that the issue was
the calibration.
This got me thinking ..... maybe the scale accuracy through the range wouldn't be consistent. Eg at 80kg it would be 5% heavier than the
reference scale but at 40kg it might be 0% or 10%. (made up values before someone picks up on them).
I then got a series of weights to test the scales through the range to about 100kg. Being a sad git i made up a spreadsheet to track the differences.
Obviously a couple of computers later I no longer have the data but the thinking was - I'll have a reference scale and an extrapolated variation
between the reference and an actual scale. I'll mark each scale with a number.
I could then weigh the car, plug the numbers for each pair of scales into a spreadsheet and get a 'true' value. I could then adjust the
car until the 'true' values worked out.
(and do i have a perfectly level garage ....... depends how level the concrete set when the builders built it)
Would I be as accurate as procomp - naaaah.
Would it be an interesting waste of an afternoon ..... hell yeah.
Would I then take a trip and spend 30 quid to see how accurate I was .... knowing me probably.
Do I believe I could *improve* my car with my method ...... I'm not sure, I'd hope so but i suspect it depends how far its out. If its
miles out then yes, if its close then I think the risk is I'd be randomly playing.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 07:34 PM | |
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Fight fight fight!
As someone with no experience of this it sounds to me like bathroom scales are a low cost option, but as the old saying goes "you get what you
pay for" no idea how old our one upstairs is but they weigh me at 17 stone and wii fit says 18 (so I'm going for the lower number!)
Then again if there's anywhere that can do it (for a whole day mind as you'll be doing adjustments?) for less than the price of the scales
then I reckon I'd go for the (more) accurate version.
Bathroom scales for at home while you work on it then professional scales to make 100% sure is the way I'm seeing it
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Hellfire
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| posted on 13/5/09 at 09:20 PM | |
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This topic seems to have become focused on corner weighting and the merits of using weighing scales in setting the corner weights. I always hold to
the ideal that if you're trying to achieve something - make sure it's as near exact as possible. Having said that, anything used to
determine and reduce a problem has to be worth a shot and that’s exactly what you’ll be doing with weighing scales.
There is of course much more to a setup than just corner weighting and it really depends what you want to achieve and how much money you’re prepared
to spend, to try and achieve it. You start off with what you get from the manufacturer and you can either accept what you have, or try to improve it.
The level to which you change it and the accuracy you aim for is down to you. My way of thinking goes something like this;
You decide to take your kitcar to be set up but the place you take it to can only work with what you present them with. I’d imagine they would set it
up as best they can and then suggest making alterations or buying alternative parts so that it can be improved further. You then go away and decide
whether you want to make those changes but ultimately if you do, you’d need to go back to have it all done again and part with some more hard
earned.
My advice would be to read and learn and try to understand suspension setup and then experiment yourself to set it up as best you can, with the
equipment you have available or are willing to purchase. Don’t be afraid to change things but unless you’re experienced, make sure you change one
thing at a time before testing it otherwise you’ll never know if the change actually improved it or made it worse. In our case, this process has taken
years and it is still very much ‘work in progress’ but we’d like to think we’re going in the right direction even if we haven’t achieved our ultimate
goal. Eventually we’ll run out of ideas/knowledge/equipment or all three and then take it to Matt at Procomp to be done properly and accurately.
Phil
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procomp
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| posted on 14/5/09 at 07:25 AM | |
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Hi
John your still working on 1% over two scales with around 300kg on them. IE one corner of the car. Thats 2-3kg per corner out randomly give or take
with a bit of luck.
So the general consensus seems to be that the bathroom scales will not give an accurate enough reading to actualy have the car corner weighted. Now
funnily enough one of my ex customers who used to race was an engineer at AVERY / SALTER scales and he came to the same opinion when he tried it
himself on his own kitcar.
And i agree with Phil or was it Steve. The more people can learn about how thier suspension works the easier it is to determine what adjustment they
need to be altering to gain better handling. It also gives you much more confidence in the car when driving at a higher limit as you can understand
why such handling characteristics are happening . ( on track of course ) But one thing is for sure once you have a light weight car such as the
majority of kitcars and you have the handling setup so as too inspire confidence rather than a car that is bobbing and weaving down the road. You will
enjoy it far more.
Cheers Matt
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mr henderson
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| posted on 14/5/09 at 07:49 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
More stuff
I've made my position absolutely clear. I am sorry you are having so much difficulty in understanding it, but then it was never intended for
your benefit anyway, it was for the other readers, and, as always, they will make up their own minds.
Let's hope that I don't have to repeat myself again. I expect you are keen to have the last word and, as long as you don't try to
make out that my position is wrong and that yours is right I will let you have it.
John
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procomp
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| posted on 14/5/09 at 08:11 AM | |
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Hi
Although i see you still haven't answered the question i asked.
Have you ever corner weighted a car and done any back to back testing ?
In fact have you ever actualy corner weighted a car yourself or are you just working from what you have read on the net.
Cheers Matt
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hughpinder
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| posted on 14/5/09 at 11:25 AM | |
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I have no actual experience of corner weighting a car as yet, and don't want to stir up any vitriol here, but I am interested in knowing what
accuracy is really required? For a race car on the track you will obviously need the best balance you can get, but in that case you will have a known
driver sat in the car, with fixed clothing etc.
In a road car, if I have a passenger, the load split will change if the passenger is not sat on the COG! A 60 kg passenger (or driver) moving their
COG by 2% of the vehicle wheelbase gives a 0.5kg corner weight imbalance. In a sylva riot, the fuel tank is at the front of the passenger footwell.
This must significantly alter the corner weights when the tank is full compared to empty - a rough calc scaled from the assembly photos: 30 kg of
fuel, centred in the middle of the footwell at about 70% forwards of the wheelbase will add 17 kg to the near front/off rear daigonal and 13kg to the
other diagonal. This surely can't be disasterously bad?? Or can it???
Has anyone got experience of adjusting corner weights in a controlled way (e.g ONLY the corner weights change) by small increments and is willing to
post to say what amount is noticable for fast road use?
Thanks
hugh
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procomp
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| posted on 15/5/09 at 08:25 AM | |
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Hi
As far as accuracy goes it is quite noticeable when it is say 20 kg or so out of balance. Once you have had your corner weights set close and then
finalised all your geometry it is then that you need to start honing in on the final accuracy of the corner weights. At this point with the geometry
set the corner weighting being out of balance will be more noticeable. This then really needs to set accurately. Ie to a 0.5kg tolerance.
In general when corner weighting a road car a decision has to be made as to whether you are having it set for use with A. driver only. Or B. driver
and passenger. 99% of people settle for the fact that they are going to be pressing a bit harder when they are on there own in the car. Ie driver
only. So the compromise is to set the car for driver only and then suffer the imbalance of a passenger.
Yep on both the Mojo and the Riot varying amounts of fuel can play a bit of havoc espesialy on those that have tried competing in competition. But the
short wheelbase and height of weight over the rear wheels is the down side. Hence the wheel base seems to be increasing weekly on both the Mojo and
Riots. A BEC Riot will Handel far better than the CEC version.
Cheers Matt
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Daddylonglegs
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| posted on 15/5/09 at 10:45 AM | |
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Blimey! Marathon or what
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, surely an easy answer is A DUEL!
Mr H does a setup of a given car using the Locost method and procomp then measures the same car using his method. Then it will be easy to see whether
or not there is an argument??
Sorry, but I couldn't resist 
OK, I'll get my coat
It looks like the Midget is winning at the moment......
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Hellfire
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| posted on 15/5/09 at 11:19 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by Daddylonglegs
Blimey! Marathon or what
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, surely an easy answer is A DUEL!
Mr H does a setup of a given car using the Locost method and procomp then measures the same car using his method. Then it will be easy to see whether
or not there is an argument??
Sorry, but I couldn't resist
OK, I'll get my coat
That's actually a good idea. It would be interesting to see just how accurate you can get with cornerweighting on bathroom scales. We'd
also volunteer our Indy as the test vehicle 
Phil
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procomp
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| posted on 16/5/09 at 08:35 AM | |
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Hi
We are assuming MR H actually knows how to corner weight a car as he will not answer my question above. which brings me to a conclusion that he only
started arguing on this thread even though he has no knowledge of the subject. Just because i made a comment that put my point of view across. Hence
the reason i have been keen for this rubbish to be draw out to show that.
PS dont forget that if wanting to get the corner weight benefit balancing the dampers is also important. As no point trying to corner weight if the
dampers are 50-80 Lb out of balance.
Cheers Matt
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procomp
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| posted on 16/5/09 at 08:38 AM | |
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Hi
Oh forgot to say i had our driver in the workshop yesterday who ran the MOJO for a few seasons trying to race it. His tip was that you cant easily set
the corner weights with layout of the MOJO / RIOT. But it was best to run a full tank of fuel to get best results.
Cheers Matt
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mr henderson
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| posted on 16/5/09 at 10:10 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
We are assuming MR H actually knows how to corner weight a car as he will not answer my question above. which brings me to a conclusion that he only
started arguing on this thread even though he has no knowledge of the subject. Just because i made a comment that put my point of view across. Hence
the reason i have been keen for this rubbish to be draw out to show that.
As I said earlier, I was tired of this argument and was going to let you have the last word as long as you didn't say that I was wrong and you
were right. Unfortunately that wasn't good enough for you and you are taking every opportunity to draw this argument out long after everybody
else is thoroughly sick of it.
That said, I will now resond-
First of all, I don't see why I have to answer your questions, but will if you answer mine first. Here they are-
How did you do at school in English comprehension and science, or were you expelled for bullying?
Why do you continue to promote your business here without applying for registered trader status?
While you are thinkng about your answers to those questions, you can also consider that this argument has been about the respective accuracy of
bathroom scales versus digital corner weighting equipment. In other words, about the accuracy of the tools used, not about the technique itself.
You might feel that they are one and the same thing but they aren't.
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
PS dont forget that if wanting to get the corner weight benefit balancing the dampers is also important. As no point trying to corner weight if the
dampers are 50-80 Lb out of balance.
Cheers Matt
Balancing dampers, yes, indeed, very important. Now, I wonder where can get my dampers balanced? I know, I can get them balanced at Procomp!!!!!!!
Another little plug for you there, Matt.
Cheers John
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mr henderson
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| posted on 16/5/09 at 10:30 AM | |
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And to all those who support locost methods of setting up, as well as building, kit cars they might be interested in an article I wil be publishing
here in the next few days on how to accurately measure camber and wheel alignment on 4 wheels with an outlay of less than £100.
I can already guess what my nemesis will have to say about it, but as I said earlier, it won't be for his benefit.
Funny thing is he's probably quite a nice guy really, just gets a bit caught up in things that he feels he's entitled to know more about
than the rest of us
John
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Fozzie
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| posted on 16/5/09 at 11:56 AM | |
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quote:
Originally posted by asl
Hi. Is there an idiots guide on how best to set up the suspension? I have not touched it since I bought the car but the back 'looks' a bit
high. ..........
This poor guy ^^^ was mainly concerned that his car was sitting to high.......
So.....referee time....
It is, as far as I can see a road going car........
Precise track/race car set ups are fairly useless in this situation, given the vast variables that have to be taken into consideration......
Time to close this thread, which is a decision NOT taken lightly.......
Fozzie....Admin
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
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