norfolkluego
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 05:44 PM |
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Kick'em out, next three races, they wouldn't do it again, nor would anyone else!
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richard
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 06:14 PM |
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here here.
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richardh
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 06:34 PM |
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exactly ^^
Time for a change!
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 07:17 PM |
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The stewards have also reffered it to the world motorsport council --- which puts Jean Todt in a very awkward position.
My guess is Rob Smedeley must be truly p****** with Ferrari the only thing keeping him at Maranello is loyalty to his driver.
I would not be too surprised if he walks.
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designer
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 07:32 PM |
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It's a travelling circus.
Why do you watch it?
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craig1410
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 08:01 PM |
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Team Orders happen all the time. Didn't you hear DC saying this? It is naive and hypocritical for anyone to criticise Ferrari unless they are
also going to criticise pretty much every other successful team and driver on the grid.
KOV let HAM through 2 years ago at the same circuit for example. Oh but that was okay because they were more subtle and KOV just
'happened' to run slightly wide at a hairpin? If you accept this then you are either gullible or hypocritical !
And then there was 'Wing-gate' last week with Webber having his wing taken off and given to Vettel. This gifted pole position to Vettel if
you look at the time difference and should have therefore gifted him the race had Vettel not screwed up. Ironic that Horner was the first to criticise
Ferrari... Pot, Kettle, Black...
Alonso WOULD have attacked Massa in the last 20 laps of the race if he had not moved over. Why do you think he backed off for a while? He was saving
fuel and tyres ready for a late charge. He has done this many times before. There is no point in sitting 0.6 sec behind someone for 40 laps as it just
overheats everything and ruins your tyres. Once he decided to attack he cruised up to Massa at 0.5 seconds per lap again.
Alonso was 0.5 sec per lap faster all weekend compared to Massa. Not enough for a clean overtake so he would have had to force a mistake from Massa in
order to pass. He almost did this early on in the race but Massa cut back across him to close the door. Could easily have been a Red Bull moment...
The problem with forcing a mistake is that it can all end easily in tears because the drivers are no longer in full control.
Ferrari knew that Alonso would not back off and clearly took the decision to secure good team points (which they richly deserved by the way) and
informed Massa that Alonso was faster. Massa understood that for the good of the team he had to move over. Ferrari HAD TO have a good result this
weekend or they could kiss goodbye to the 2010 season. It may not be the closing stages of the season yet, when these team order situations normally
arise, but for Ferrari it might as well have been. If the two cars had collided then they would probably have just started to focus on 2011 which
would have deprived us all of the fight between them and RB/McLaren in the next few months.
Team orders do happen, we all know this so why pretend that we are all shocked at this result? They should review the rules and make them legal
because they cannot be policed effectively, or at least consistently and it seems that the more sneaky you are with your team orders the better. We
should reward transparency, not subterfuge!!
Great race for Ferrari and Alonso!
[Edited on 25/7/2010 by craig1410]
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craig1410
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 08:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
My guess is Rob Smedeley must be truly p****** with Ferrari the only thing keeping him at Maranello is loyalty to his driver.
I would not be too surprised if he walks.
Maybe he'll get the boot because it was his handling of the situation that made it so much more inflammatory. Then again he often has to spell
things out to Massa doesn't he?
If Massa is such a devoted Ferrari team player then he should never have had to be asked to move over, implicitly or otherwise. He should have done it
long before being asked.
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russbost
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 08:19 PM |
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"Team Orders happen all the time. Didn't you hear DC saying this? It is naive and hypocritical for anyone to criticise Ferrari unless they
are also going to criticise pretty much every other successful team and driver on the grid.
KOV let HAM through 2 years ago at the same circuit for example. Oh but that was okay because they were more subtle and KOV just
'happened' to run slightly wide at a hairpin? If you accept this then you are either gullible or hypocritical !
And then there was 'Wing-gate' last week with Webber having his wing taken off and given to Vettel. This gifted pole position to Vettel if
you look at the time difference and should have therefore gifted him the race had Vettel not screwed up. Ironic that Horner was the first to criticise
Ferrari... Pot, Kettle, Black...
Alonso WOULD have attacked Massa in the last 20 laps of the race if he had not moved over. Why do you think he backed off for a while? He was saving
fuel and tyres ready for a late charge. He has done this many times before. There is no point in sitting 0.6 sec behind someone for 40 laps as it just
overheats everything and ruins your tyres. Once he decided to attack he cruised up to Massa at 0.5 seconds per lap again.
Alonso was 0.5 sec per lap faster all weekend compared to Massa. Not enough for a clean overtake so he would have had to force a mistake from Massa in
order to pass. He almost did this early on in the race but Massa cut back across him to close the door. Could easily have been a Red Bull moment...
The problem with forcing a mistake is that it can all end easily in tears because the drivers are no longer in full control.
Ferrari knew that Alonso would not back off and clearly took the decision to secure good team points (which they richly deserved by the way) and
informed Massa that Alonso was faster. Massa understood that for the good of the team he had to move over. Ferrari HAD TO have a good result this
weekend or they could kiss goodbye to the 2010 season. It may not be the closing stages of the season yet, when these team order situations normally
arise, but for Ferrari it might as well have been. If the two cars had collided then they would probably have just started to focus on 2011 which
would have deprived us all of the fight between them and RB/McLaren in the next few months.
Team orders do happen, we all know this so why pretend that we are all shocked at this result? They should review the rules and make them legal
because they cannot be policed effectively, or at least consistently and it seems that the more sneaky you are with your team orders the better. We
should reward transparency, not subterfuge!!
Great race for Ferrari and Alonso! "
Which part of "It is now illegal under current rules" are you struggling with???
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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craig1410
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| posted on 25/7/10 at 08:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
"Team Orders happen all the time. Didn't you hear DC saying this? It is naive and hypocritical for anyone to criticise Ferrari unless they
are also going to criticise pretty much every other successful team and driver on the grid.
KOV let HAM through 2 years ago at the same circuit for example. Oh but that was okay because they were more subtle and KOV just
'happened' to run slightly wide at a hairpin? If you accept this then you are either gullible or hypocritical !
And then there was 'Wing-gate' last week with Webber having his wing taken off and given to Vettel. This gifted pole position to Vettel if
you look at the time difference and should have therefore gifted him the race had Vettel not screwed up. Ironic that Horner was the first to criticise
Ferrari... Pot, Kettle, Black...
Alonso WOULD have attacked Massa in the last 20 laps of the race if he had not moved over. Why do you think he backed off for a while? He was saving
fuel and tyres ready for a late charge. He has done this many times before. There is no point in sitting 0.6 sec behind someone for 40 laps as it just
overheats everything and ruins your tyres. Once he decided to attack he cruised up to Massa at 0.5 seconds per lap again.
Alonso was 0.5 sec per lap faster all weekend compared to Massa. Not enough for a clean overtake so he would have had to force a mistake from Massa in
order to pass. He almost did this early on in the race but Massa cut back across him to close the door. Could easily have been a Red Bull moment...
The problem with forcing a mistake is that it can all end easily in tears because the drivers are no longer in full control.
Ferrari knew that Alonso would not back off and clearly took the decision to secure good team points (which they richly deserved by the way) and
informed Massa that Alonso was faster. Massa understood that for the good of the team he had to move over. Ferrari HAD TO have a good result this
weekend or they could kiss goodbye to the 2010 season. It may not be the closing stages of the season yet, when these team order situations normally
arise, but for Ferrari it might as well have been. If the two cars had collided then they would probably have just started to focus on 2011 which
would have deprived us all of the fight between them and RB/McLaren in the next few months.
Team orders do happen, we all know this so why pretend that we are all shocked at this result? They should review the rules and make them legal
because they cannot be policed effectively, or at least consistently and it seems that the more sneaky you are with your team orders the better. We
should reward transparency, not subterfuge!!
Great race for Ferrari and Alonso! "
Which part of "It is now illegal under current rules" are you struggling with???
Ha ha...
We all know it was a team order but Massa is the one with hands on the steering and feet on the pedals. He was only told that Fernando was faster so
therefore not technically a team order. That's kinda my point though - team orders happen in a different form now but they still happen. Better
to do it transparently that try to treat us all like idiots.
I don't know about you guys but I'd be more than happy to be a number 2 driver to Alonso. I wouldn't be greedy either - 50k a year
would be very nice thank you very much. Maybe I could make some extra cash on the side by selling all my broken carbon fibre parts on ebay...
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scudderfish
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 11:26 AM |
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http://sniffpetrol.com/2010/07/26/ferrari-back-on-form/
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 12:29 PM |
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http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/ferrari-employ-regency-gentlemen-201007262945/
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 12:36 PM |
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Wonder what their reply would have been if Massa had replied over the radio
"He's faster is he! Then I shall drive like the wind and defend the position with every fibre of my being"
Build Blog
Build Photo Album
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scudderfish
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 03:14 PM |
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Or
"No he isn't! By the very fact that he is BEHIND ME his average speed over the duration of the race must be lower than mine. Ergo,
whilst he may occasionally have a higher peak speed, his overall performance is less than mine, as his wife told me last night!"
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JoelP
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 04:11 PM |
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or even, 'no probs, i'll get me toe down'
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dlatch
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 04:38 PM |
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Vettel showed once again he is not a world champion and fluffed the start again
alonso did not win but was worthy of it none the less
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Ivan
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 04:44 PM |
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I must say that I feel it's high time that everyone accepts that in the top formulas it's the team owners and sponsors that put their
reputation and cash on the line - especially if sales depend on winning the championship - and as such they should have every right to dictate
finishing order in their teams.
Drivers should realise that they are just overpaid employees and if they want the personal glamour then they should fund their own rides.
Gamblers should realise the reality of the situation and if they want to bet on the lowest point driver in the team then that's their choice and
they shouldn't squeal when team orders act against them, also they should ensure the odds reflect the reality.
The rules against team orders are nothing but greed on behalf of the GP owners to ensure TV viewers but they forget that without the teams there would
be no event - formula racing at that level becomes a team sport as soon as each team is allowed more than one entry so we should all view it as such.
If you don't want it to be a team sport only allow one car per team to enter.
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norfolkluego
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 10:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Team Orders happen all the time. Didn't you hear DC saying this? It is naive and hypocritical for anyone to criticise Ferrari unless they are
also going to criticise pretty much every other successful team and driver on the grid.
KOV let HAM through 2 years ago at the same circuit for example. Oh but that was okay because they were more subtle and KOV just
'happened' to run slightly wide at a hairpin? If you accept this then you are either gullible or hypocritical !
And then there was 'Wing-gate' last week with Webber having his wing taken off and given to Vettel. This gifted pole position to Vettel if
you look at the time difference and should have therefore gifted him the race had Vettel not screwed up. Ironic that Horner was the first to criticise
Ferrari... Pot, Kettle, Black...
Alonso WOULD have attacked Massa in the last 20 laps of the race if he had not moved over. Why do you think he backed off for a while? He was saving
fuel and tyres ready for a late charge. He has done this many times before. There is no point in sitting 0.6 sec behind someone for 40 laps as it just
overheats everything and ruins your tyres. Once he decided to attack he cruised up to Massa at 0.5 seconds per lap again.
Alonso was 0.5 sec per lap faster all weekend compared to Massa. Not enough for a clean overtake so he would have had to force a mistake from Massa in
order to pass. He almost did this early on in the race but Massa cut back across him to close the door. Could easily have been a Red Bull moment...
The problem with forcing a mistake is that it can all end easily in tears because the drivers are no longer in full control.
Ferrari knew that Alonso would not back off and clearly took the decision to secure good team points (which they richly deserved by the way) and
informed Massa that Alonso was faster. Massa understood that for the good of the team he had to move over. Ferrari HAD TO have a good result this
weekend or they could kiss goodbye to the 2010 season. It may not be the closing stages of the season yet, when these team order situations normally
arise, but for Ferrari it might as well have been. If the two cars had collided then they would probably have just started to focus on 2011 which
would have deprived us all of the fight between them and RB/McLaren in the next few months.
Team orders do happen, we all know this so why pretend that we are all shocked at this result? They should review the rules and make them legal
because they cannot be policed effectively, or at least consistently and it seems that the more sneaky you are with your team orders the better. We
should reward transparency, not subterfuge!!
Great race for Ferrari and Alonso!
[Edited on 25/7/2010 by craig1410]
1. There sure as hell are no team orders at Red Bull or McLaren this year as is obvious from some of the incidents between the drivers. While
they've got a chance of the championship none of them will back off.
2. 'Massa understood that for the good of the team he had to move over' - you actually believe that, seriously?
Massa was TOLD to move over, he wouldn't have done otherwise, understanding didn't come in to it.
[Edited on 26/7/10 by norfolkluego]
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 10:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by norfolkluego
1. There sure as hell are no team orders at Red Bull or McLaren this year as is obvious from some of the incidents between the drivers. While
they've got a chance of the championship none of them will back off.
2. 'Massa understood that for the good of the team he had to move over' - come on, Massa was TOLD to move over, he wouldn't have
done otherwise, understanding didn't come in to it.
1. Are you serious?  What about the McLaren fuel saving / not fuel saving debacle a few weeks ago? And what about Wing-gate at Red Bull? The
difference at Red Bull is that Mark Webber is in the twilight of his career and is a ballsy Australian who won't lie down and play nice for the
team. He knows this could easily be his only chance to win a WDC and isn't going to pass it up. Vettel is the golden boy much the same as
Hamilton was at McLaren in 2007. He has been manufactured to be a WDC (no disrespect to Vettel intended).
2. Massa, like Webber, is free to make his own decisions as he is in control of the car. If he thought the decision was wrong then he should have had
the balls to stand up for himself. End of.
I've said elsewhere on another forum that there is a clear difference between the following two groups of drivers:
Group1
Alonso, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton
Group2
Massa, Barrichello, Coulthard, Kovalainen
The first group are unyielding, ultra competitive racing animals and the second group are the also-rans. Again, no disrespect intended to these
drivers ( I am a big Coulthard fan) but they have never shown the steely tenacity of the first group and that for me is the difference between a
champion and an also-ran.
Ron Dennis once said of Alonso that "Competitive animals know no limits"
To me this is both a criticism and a compliment but in the racing world it is essential if you ever want to become a world champion. We should
congratulate this ruthlessness just the same as if it was boxing or MMA.
[Edited on 26/7/2010 by craig1410]
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russbost
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 10:53 PM |
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"What about the McLaren fuel saving / not fuel saving debacle a few weeks ago?"
Ummmm - that looked remarkably like racing to me, unless they banged wheels just to make it look convincing!
Which group does JB fit into then 1 & 1/2?
If you choose to give one driver a quicker car (the RB front wing swap) that's NOT team orders, it's simply favouring one driver - if you
have given your driver instructions that "he is faster than you" means "move over & let him thro' cos he ain't quick
enough to manage an overtake" that IS team orders & it quite plainly is ILLEGAL & Ferrari should at minimum have had the positions
reversed & should probably have had at least a one race ban.
As has already been said, it's been pretty clear that RBR & McLaren have allowed their drivers to race whilst Ferrari have blatantly flouted
a very clear rule & should pay the consequences, not a pathetic 100,000 dollar wrist slap.
If teams want to have a clear no. 1 & no. 2 driver then they should engineer their cars or pitstops accordingly - if they must insist on breaking
the rules they could at least do it subtley rather than wave the rule breaking in everybodies face - personally I think they should be made to payout
to every poor sucker that had money on Massa to win the race!
[Edited on 26/7/10 by russbost]
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 10:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
"What about the McLaren fuel saving / not fuel saving debacle a few weeks ago?"
Ummmm - that looked remarkably like racing to me, unless they banged wheels just to make it look convincing!
Which group does JB fit into then 1 & 1/2?
Yeah I was talking about the whole "team order" aspect where LH was told that JB wouldn't overtake him and then of course they
forgot to tell JB that. It was obvious that the team on that occasion made a mess of their team orders.
JB is a difficult one to place in one group or the other. To be honest I'd put him in group 2 because I think he was simply driving the right
car at the right time last year against a team mate who although very good at times, was somewhat conflicted within himself.
I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at with the two groups. It's not a perfect division but it shows the extremes clearly.
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russbost
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 11:07 PM |
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Take your point entirely with the 2 groups & I think JB is a sort of 1 & 1/2, he made some fantastic overtakes at times last year & at
other times seemed to lack any fire in his belly.
At least he didn't go & cry in the bushes at Monza like one of your No.1's,someone who I would also put at 1 & 1/2 incidentally
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
norfolkluego
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 11:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
"What about the McLaren fuel saving / not fuel saving debacle a few weeks ago?"
Ummmm - that looked remarkably like racing to me, unless they banged wheels just to make it look convincing!
Which group does JB fit into then 1 & 1/2?
Yeah I was talking about the whole "team order" aspect where LH was told that JB wouldn't overtake him and then of course they
forgot to tell JB that. It was obvious that the team on that occasion made a mess of their team orders.
JB is a difficult one to place in one group or the other. To be honest I'd put him in group 2 because I think he was simply driving the right
car at the right time last year against a team mate who although very good at times, was somewhat conflicted within himself.
I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at with the two groups. It's not a perfect division but it shows the extremes clearly.
Don't really disagree with that but, and it's a big but, Massa was instructed to move over (and I'm with Brundle on this one, the
drivers should say shove it, win the race and face the flak afterwards), If the driver decides himself to move over that's one thing, being told
to do it is wrong (in my opinion), despite what he said after the race Massa didn't decide 'for the good of the team' to move over,
he was told to
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 11:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Take your point entirely with the 2 groups & I think JB is a sort of 1 & 1/2, he made some fantastic overtakes at times last year & at
other times seemed to lack any fire in his belly.
At least he didn't go & cry in the bushes at Monza like one of your No.1's,someone who I would also put at 1 & 1/2 incidentally
You're referring to Mika - yes he cried in the bushes, one of the most emotional moments I can remember in F1. Even Martin Brundle was quite
touched by that one as I recall. Shows how much it meant to him - remember he was nearly killed racing only a few years earlier.
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RK
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| posted on 26/7/10 at 11:17 PM |
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Cue Paul Weller and the Jam: "That's Entertainment"
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