gottabedone
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 08:10 AM |
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Subsidising the installation of these panels is one thing (with questions about who is actually making money here as companies are crawling out of the
woodwork taking advantage of the subsidies) but what are the costs of maintenance/maintaining your manufacturers guarantee and what are the costs to
remove and dispose of these things when the bubble bursts?
We've seen many hair brained schemes over the years and they've always had a cost that's bitten us on the ar$e 
Steve
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russbost
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 08:22 AM |
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Sorry, perhaps I should have said it's a no brainer for anyone South of the midlands!
Your 4.8% is unusually high & may have catches, I don't know, but it's only actually worth around 3.3% after tax, so your figures are
way skewed b4 you start, I also don't believe you've taken the additional 3p per unit on 50% ofthe electricity generated into account, nor
what you'll save off your electricity bill .
I live in the real world, I don't think it will add £10k to the value of my house, but yes, possibly 4 or 5, which means the installation only
has to pay off say £6k before I start making money - I'll be very surprised if it doesn't do that in about 5 years.
Everything is manufacturer guaranteed for 10 years, some of it up to 25 years on sliding scale & backed with insurance warranty if the company
goes belly up, ongoing maintenance is negligable.
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 09:09 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
If youve got some savings sitting in a bank/building society earning bugger all its a no brainer, where else can you get that rate without taking a
humungus risk.
Cheers,
Bob
It's a no brainer IF you are certain of your employment status for the foreseeable future. 10k in the bank is always vastly better than a solar
panel on your roof if your job security is not assured. Any 25 year guarantee for panels is extremely unlikely to be worth the paper it's
written on.
BTW, has anyone checked what the impact on home insurance is?
[Edited on 26/1/12 by MikeRJ]
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 10:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Sorry, perhaps I should have said it's a no brainer for anyone South of the midlands!
Your 4.8% is unusually high & may have catches, I don't know, but it's only actually worth around 3.3% after tax, so your figures are
way skewed b4 you start, I also don't believe you've taken the additional 3p per unit on 50% ofthe electricity generated into account, nor
what you'll save off your electricity bill .
I live in the real world, I don't think it will add £10k to the value of my house, but yes, possibly 4 or 5, which means the installation only
has to pay off say £6k before I start making money - I'll be very surprised if it doesn't do that in about 5 years.
Everything is manufacturer guaranteed for 10 years, some of it up to 25 years on sliding scale & backed with insurance warranty if the company
goes belly up, ongoing maintenance is negligable.
The 4.8% is available today on a 5 year deal and there are other similar deals. Note that interest rates are at a historic low just now so over the
next 25 years I would expect to be able to get 5% very easily on average. Yes there may be tax to take off that figure (depending on circmstances) but
there are some very tax efficient ways to save including ISAs and even paying into a pension pot. 25 years is a long time so many of us will be
nearing retirement by then including myself. The good thing about this type of savings deal is that the money becomes available again every 5 years
with no penalty on interest and there is no risk as there would be with stocks and shares or investing in a single technology product which is what
you are doing with PV just now. Do you really believe there won't be better (evolutionary or revolutionary) products available in that
timeframe?
I'm not clear on the 3p thing to be honest. Are you able to relate your 80 kwh generated so far and how that converts to a cheque in the post
from your electricity provider? Also, I'm not clear on how personal consumption affects FIT income. I hardly use any electricity during daylight
hours as we are usually out and obviously don't ned lights. Most of my consumption is in the evenings when solar would be of very limited use.
I'd like better clarity on how the inbound/outbound flow of energy affects potential earnings before I try to model this financially.
The £4k increase in house price I suggested was only really meant on day 1. I expect that, if you were to sell your house after 5 or 10 years then the
value uplift would be zero. In some cases the prospect of buying a house with PV installed might even put some buyers off due to potential
contractual/maintenance and even appearance concerns. I would suggest writing off the value of the PV panels over 5 years, perhaps 8 years at a push.
All IMHO of course, no data to offer to prove or disprove this as yet.
I agree with the other poster who paid that warranty is probably not worth the paper it is written on. The good news is that if anything goes wrong
after 10 years there will be much cheaper panels available anyway. That kinda gets back to my original point. I think the right move just now is to do
nothing and wait for the PV technology to mature a little bit further both in terms of performance and cost. I'll be watching with interest over
the next 5 years and will be happy to admit I was wrong if that is how it turns out. 
Cheers,
Craig.
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emsfactory
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 10:19 AM |
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Im In Glasgow, had my system put in around the 20th Nov. Generated about 100kwh so far. Highest 1 day was a couple of days ago at 7.8 kwh for the day.
Not bad for Jan the second worst mobnth of the year. I am confident that during summer i will be over 20 per day.
My old boy has an old style meter and his goes backwards when generating!
Energy will only go up.
I agree with Russ, if you have the cash stick it on the roof.
Granted its a poor to rich tax, not that i'm saying i'm rich, but so be it.
I am happy that in 10-15 years I'll be well up on the deal.
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emsfactory
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 10:31 AM |
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See, the pros are actually facts, pinch of salt here and there maybe but your negatives,
The £4k increase in house price I suggested was only really meant on day 1. I expect that, if you were to sell your house after 5 or 10 years then the
value uplift would be zero. In some cases the prospect of buying a house with PV installed might even put some buyers off due to potential
contractual/maintenance and even appearance concerns. I would suggest writing off the value of the PV panels over 5 years, perhaps 8 years at a push.
All IMHO of course, no data to offer to prove or disprove this as yet.,
are all made up. You dont need to right them off, add value to your house, right that off etc to get to break even. They do that on thier own. If they
add value to your house, who cares. If your about to move don't put solar on the roof. If their written off your house value after 5/8 years who
cares, you still live there and the panels are still doing their job.
The returns make good financial sense if you have the cash available. As they break in years to come, repair them using the new super duper really
cheap panels that will be available then.
The guarantees are separated from the companies that install the kit to protect the purchaser. The 1K odd inverter will prob last 10 years, if a new
one cost £100 by then I'll be surprised. The returns are tax free and index linked for 25 years. I have a feeling they will go up more than any
savings rate you'll get. Oh and you get some free leccy which will always go up so be worth more each year.
No Brainer.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 11:58 AM |
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I could waste a lot of time replying to the negatives. Hot air and scaremongering.
My system here, installed and commisioned on September 13th last year, has just gone past 1200kWhrs, and a recent payment of near £500, and the main
electric bill is down by 28%
Some days in the last couple of months have been no more than 1~2 kWhrs, and the best in September was 26. We can expect much more generation in the
March~July period, per day. 4+ units so far today. Another couple of quid in the bank.
No more to say.
Cheers,
Nev.
1.45pm Just gone 10 now so far today, £4+ and counting, money in the bank....
[Edited on 26/1/12 by Neville Jones]
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JoelP
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| posted on 29/1/12 at 06:52 PM |
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i do believe it will make money myself, especially as the FIT rates go up every year as your deal progresses. And, energy is going to get far more
expensive soon, imho.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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jossey
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| posted on 29/1/12 at 07:19 PM |
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Install the DIY panels and get the feed in machine installed by a registered company. Easy peeeeze
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
quote:
Originally posted by Snuggs
quote:
Originally posted by jossey
its good news for you cos if you buy them now you should get about £800 back in feed in tariff a year and save say £150-200 in leccy.
Plus its guaranteed for 25 years.
£800 x 25 = £20,000
Plus £200 * 25 = £5,000
Fit the panels yourself 2kw should cost less than £5,000
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
bad news, for everyone who doesnt have them.
[Edited on 25/1/12 by jossey]
I thought you only got paid if they were installed by a registered installer ?
Very true. No DIY on these I'm afraid. Have to be certified by a registered installer, and an electrician who's certified to do the
electrical setup.
If you've got a mate who's a registered installer, then good luck to you.
As for the poor paying for the rich who can afford these, that's simply not true. Why do you think the Govt wanted to stop the high tariff? The
money comes from central govt and they get it from the EU slush fund.
Cheers,
Nev.
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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craig1410
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| posted on 29/1/12 at 07:23 PM |
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@emsfactory
@Neville Jones
Guys, you are getting all defensive when what I was trying to do was tease some facts out. Yes I was "making stuff up", otherwise known in
the scientific community as hypothesising. But I stated clearly that my mind is open and I am willing to learn and to try to come up with a better
model of the pros and cons. No need for you guys to get all defensive. Maybe you can't bear the possibility that you may have invested unwisely?
Not an uncommon reaction.
To be honest I don't think you need to worry about that because I personally think it will pay back eventually. However, I would like to be able
to figure out whether it only makes sense if you are a saver or if it might also make sense if you are in a position where you maybe have to pay half
of the installation cost from credit. Also, as the economy warms up even savers will start to get interest rates more like the levels there used to be
so again it needs some science behind the opinions.
Clearly there is a return from these schemes. However, the question of how long must one wait before breaking even and then hopefully going on to make
a profit is far from being answered to a satisfactory level in my eyes.
So, maybe between us all we can pull together some facts, free from polarised opinions and spin? That would be a step forward at least.
As for the warranties, I don't doubt that there will be a protected pool of cash to pay for this, what bother me more is what terms and
conditions might prevent someone from claiming. If anyone has tried making an NHBC claim then you will know what I'm talking about. However, I
wouldn't want to be accused of scaremongering again so I'll not say any more about it...
Finally, with reference to my hypothesis about house value not being increased. Without quoting specific figures again, all I'm saying is that
you are unlikely to get your money back (or anything like it) if you installed a PV system and then sold your house. A quality new kitchen or a new
bathroom might give you a good return in preparation for a sale but a PV system is something that the owner "chooses" to do for their own
reasons and a prospective buyer may or may not share that enthusiasm. Therefore the value uplift will reflect that. After, say, 10 years a prospective
buyer will see it like any 10 year old appliance and might be put off by potential repair costs. Hopefully by then PV systems will have proven to be
reliable and warranty providers won't all have gone bankrupt.
Anyway, if I'm honest I can say that I have no intention of buying into PV just now, partly because I don't see me staying in this house
much longer and partly because I'm not convinced of the benefits within a reasonable (i.e. <10 year) timeframe.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 29/1/12 at 10:54 PM |
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Craig,
I'm not being defensive, just fed up with the negative naysayers. Since that last post of mine, we've had fair weather and made another
£20. Simple as that.
We don't intend moving(at least nothing less than 12K miles south and east )so have no fears or regrets.
The system is paying for itself, and saving us money on the main electric bill. What else can I say?
Cheers,
nev.
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craig1410
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| posted on 29/1/12 at 11:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Craig,
I'm not being defensive, just fed up with the negative naysayers. Since that last post of mine, we've had fair weather and made another
£20. Simple as that.
We don't intend moving(at least nothing less than 12K miles south and east )so have no fears or regrets.
The system is paying for itself, and saving us money on the main electric bill. What else can I say?
Cheers,
nev.
Hi Nev,
That's fair enough and I understand how you can get fed up with naysayers - hopefully you can see that I'm not one of them, I just want to
base my own decisions on facts rather than myth and legend.
I'm actually really keen to be able to use renewables. In fact I seriously looked into micro-generation by capturing rainwater from my house
roof and feeding it into little turbines in the down pipes. However, when I did the math, it turned out to be a tiny amount of energy which could be
recovered. Definitely not worth it. I couldn't believe how little energy this would yield - it was truly pitiful!
I also have a burn (stream) flowing through my back garden and have often thought about building a water wheel. A combination of water wheel, wind
turbine and PV cells would cover every type of weather up here in Scotland!
I'd be very interested to hear more details about your system. Installed capacity and installation cost versus energy recovery rate. Do you have
an idea when the system will break even? Also, I'm still not clear how the generated energy turns into FIT payback AND reduction on local usage.
Can you clarify how the numbers work? For example, we tend to consume about 6300 units of electricity a year. That's just over 17kwh per day.
How does this relate to the daily generation figure? Does the generated energy first supply your local requirements before getting exported to the
grid (would seem sensible) or do you get double credit - ie. 43p per unit generated PLUS additional credit for excess energy exported to the grid?
Anyway, thanks for your time.
Craig.
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franky
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| posted on 30/1/12 at 07:51 AM |
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If I wasn't planning on moving in the next 20 years it's something I'd go for, I can say that I think its add's zero value to
a house at the minute although it makes it a better buy out of two identical houses if one was with and the other without. We looked at some houses
when house hunting that had them installed, my mrs doesn't like the look of them either which must be a woman thing, although in fairness they
do ruin the look of most houses that they're installed on.
Its a shame the goverment has extended the cut-off for the higher rate, at least they are going to stop it though. It does make me chuckle when you
hear these new companies moaning about job losses/going when they've only set up in the past 12months and just to make money on the back of a
goverment cock-up that costs everyone without PV, Sustainable energy yes, Sustainable business model no.
All in, if you're staying put for 20years, don't mind the look get it done. Or buy a porsche 993, they look nicer and are going up in
value year on year
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russbost
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| posted on 30/1/12 at 09:33 AM |
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Craig, some facts & figures.
Mine is a 4kWh installation, means simply in perfect conditions it would put out 4Kw every hour for how ever many hours of sunshine, obviously you
never expect it to put out anything like that much or on June 21st you'd have around 16 hours of sunshine & 64Kwh. If you have a roof facing
South or close to it with approx 35-50 degree angle of pitch, no obstructions for the sunlight & live anywhere in the South of the country you
will do better than anyone who isn't in this fortunate position. My installation faces approx SW at around the right angle, but we have some
trees that shade the panels a little at certain times, so I'm expecting less than predicted output for my area of the country, but obviously the
trees make far less difference when the sun is high in the sky, ie the summer months which is when most of the power is made. The system cost £10,000
to install last November & I think you could probably already save £1000 on that as prices are still dropping, mine wasn't a dead
straightforward install, but wasn't horrendously difficult.
According to government figures (note government, NOT eletricity company or solar panel installers figures) my system should pay me back at around
£1600pa & rising year on year, including savings made on electricity.
From my own observations of what the system has done so far I will be pretty amazed if it doesn't make me at least £1100 in the first year &
save somewhere in the region of £100-200 on the fuel bills to boot.
The tarif works in the following way, you get a set rate (currently 43.3p, but set to rise year on year by inflation related amount) per unit
generated which is measured by a meter installed as part of the installation. I think this next bit varies from one electric co. to another, but the
way it works for us is that for each unit going back to the grid they pay you a further 3p per unit, now they don't actually measure this! They
assume you will use 50% & send 50% back to the grid, so take 50% of that 3p & add it onto the 43.3 p, so you now see you get paid 44.8p per
unit AT THE CURRENT RATE, I strongly emphasise this because the base figure (originally 41.3p I think) is linked to inflation & last year went up
by nearly 5% (hence the current 43.3p).
So because they asssume I'm sending 50% of my electric back to the grid, the more power I can consume myself whilst the panels are on the
better, so dishwasher, washing m/c & tumble dryer will defo be going on during the day rather than overnight on the half price leccy if I'm
generating more than a couple of kW per hour (not gonna happen at this time of year!)
So although there are a few variables there, you are getting an absolute minimum of 44.8p per unit & a saving on your electric bill at around 12p
per unit for however much power you can "save" (read use!) whilst the panels are generating.
I am expecting to generate at least 2400 kWh in the year so should see a cheque for £1080, say I save a further £120 on leccy that's £1200.
So at year one I already have 12% of my investment back which I can now reinvest or spend as I wish, but I now only owe £8800.
At the end of year 2, lets say we get only a 3% rise in inflation & no increase in electricity bills (yeah, that's likely) & lets say I
invest that £1200 & get the dazzling rate of 2.5% after tax, my electricity income is now £1112 for the year plus £120 savings on electric &
£30 income from the £1200 investment, so a total of £1262 - my investment has now come down to 7538 - or, to put it another way, I would have 25%
(nearly) OF THE INVESTMENT BACK IN JUST 2 YEARS. Now are you starting to see why, if you have money earning bu**er all in an investment account &
live anywhere below Yorkshire it really is a no brainer & remember it is only going to get better from thgere on in until well past the point
it's paid for - AFTER which, yes there could be some maintenance expenses, but way less than the income.
You're NOT tying money up indefinitely, what you are actually doing is generating an increasing & ongoing income stream which is only EVER
going to increase.
Despite the nayayers, you are also getting a benefit on your house price too. Estate agents don't miss a trick, do you seriously think that
where you have a property a few years down the line generating an £1800pa income (some are already doing this now - never mind as prices go up) that
the estate agent is NOT going to be bludgeoning people over the head with this fact? ...... "just think sir, that's covered 2 months of
your mortgage payments already - have a nice little holiday on that couldn't you!" I can already see the agent rubbing his oily little
hands together! That is after all around a months salary for a lot of people.
If you look at the above you will see why it went to the high court & why they wanted to reduce the tarifs sooner rather than later. I agree that
the further North you are the less you'll get, but even when they halve the tarif it would still make sense down this end of the country.
In your case I think you should be putting that wee burn to work, I reckon you could save some serious leccy there for not a lot of money - a 10kWh
wind generator "motor" is less than £400 & any decent size brook should drive that 24/7 surely!!!
Happy generating, Russ
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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hobbsy
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| posted on 30/1/12 at 01:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
You're NOT tying money up indefinitely, what you are actually doing is generating an increasing & ongoing income stream which is only EVER
going to increase.
I think the point that other posters have tried to make is that once you've committed to ~£10k on panels you really can't access that
cash. Any other comparison to conventional savings/investments you can always get the capital back quite easily (delays / penalties aside).
So you can't compare directly the "returns" to a savings account as for example one year into a savings account on my £10k you would
get say £500 if a 5% savings account (taxable interest possibly as I'm not sure 5% ISA's are available and neither can you put that much
in during 1 year) however you can also lay your hands on the £10k capital. 1 year with £10k on your roof may in fact yield up to a 20% tax free
"return" however you really can't lay your hands on the £10k.
That said I went for it on about the 9th of Dec last year anyway as I *know* I'm not selling for a minimum of 4 years and it could easily turn
into 6, 7 or 8. They hopefully will have paid for themselves after about 5 or 6 years. Only at that point are you really making a true profit
although I agree that they *should* make your house easier to sell / perhaps add some value as long as they haven't made it look really ugly.
Mine are mounted on the rear and I personally think they look fine. I think anodised black frames stand out less than the plain aluminium ones.
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russbost
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| posted on 30/1/12 at 06:45 PM |
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"Any other comparison to conventional savings/investments you can always get the capital back quite easily (delays / penalties aside)."
But you can't just say "delays/penalties aside" - in both instances, you wouldn't agree to tie your capital up for 5 years if
you felt you were likely to need it in that time. Your figure of 5% is miles off, if someone can show me where I can make 5% guaranteed for the next 5
years, tax free, I'll believe it, till then it's in cloud cuckoo land. Wherever you tie the money up, whether it's on your roof or
in a bank, if you change your mind & want it back then it's going to cost you, the penalties on long term investments are generally pretty
severe, whereas in the case of sticking it on your roof, as you now have an income of at least £1200 a year & you need the money back temporarily,
then borrow it, you should certainly be able to borrow it at less than 12% pa, so you're STILL, even in this extremely unlikely situation to be
better off with the pv panels.
What's more, everyone is saying the money has to be written off - not true, I'd be pretty daft to do it, but I bet I could sell my panels
& inverter for about £5k if I went & took it off the roof myself, personally I think I'll leave it there & watch the cheques roll in
thanx!
I don't have an axe to grind here, just trying to be a good citizen & offer what I believe to be good advice - that said I am not a
financial expert, not a member of the FSA, any suggestion I make should not be taken at face value or with a large pinch of salt & I will not be
held liable for anyone choosing to invest money in this fashion!!! Please read the small print below (it is very very small)
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
hobbsy
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| posted on 30/1/12 at 07:50 PM |
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All I'm saying you can't compare them *directly* to traditional investments as they aren't one. Yes you hopefully are getting a
payment/benefits back to the tune of 10 to 20% tax free per year but your money is still a lot more tied up than any normal investment.
I'm not saying they are a bad idea as I have gone for them myself!!!
Which supplier are you with? And how did the FIT registration process go? I'm still waiting to hear back from them after the mad rush.
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cerbera
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| posted on 30/1/12 at 08:12 PM |
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The more I read this post the more I think I should be having this done at my property.
Over the next 10-15 years there is a strong possibility that I will need to have the roof retiled. For those that have had it done / done it
themselves, how big a task would it be to remove and reinstall the panels, are we talking £1000's or £100's in terms of labour?
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hobbsy
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| posted on 30/1/12 at 08:18 PM |
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The whole install took less than half a day and I guess a lot of the complications are more likely to occur inside the house siting the inverter and
running the wiring than on the roof.
The panels are 20 to 25Kg each so depending on how many you go for you are looking at putting ~250Kg or more on your roof so you want to be confident
the structure is sound. Although obviously the weight is nicely spread out.
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cerbera
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| posted on 3/2/12 at 07:44 PM |
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Just had someone round for a site survey. This particular company deal in Caymax panels. Does anyone have a website link where the different panels
are compared as I have no idea whether the panels being offered are actually any good. I've tried Google but mustn't be asking the correct
question.
The blurb that he left says they are A grade panels which would suggest they are good but would like to read some independent reviews of panels before
I make a decision.
Any other info of what to look out for or any questions I should be asking when the next company comes?
Thanks in advance.
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matty h
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| posted on 3/2/12 at 08:50 PM |
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Bloke at work is having panels fitted by this company they are installed and looked after for nothing.
http://ashadegreener.co.uk/
Matty
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cerbera
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| posted on 8/2/12 at 06:48 PM |
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Of the people who have had the panels fitted for a while, how are the actual results comparing with the figures that were quoted before install?
Less than quoted
On target with quote
More than quoted.
Ta.
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Peteff
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| posted on 8/2/12 at 07:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matty h
Bloke at work is having panels fitted by this company they are installed and looked after for nothing.
http://ashadegreener.co.uk/
Matty
You only get the cheap leccy off the system though, any FIT profit goes to the company.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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JoelP
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| posted on 8/2/12 at 07:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
quote:
Originally posted by matty h
Bloke at work is having panels fitted by this company they are installed and looked after for nothing.
http://ashadegreener.co.uk/
Matty
You only get the cheap leccy off the system though, any FIT profit goes to the company.
And if you are out most of the day, its not so easy to use the free stuff.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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franky
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| posted on 8/2/12 at 07:25 PM |
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unless you've a young family at home
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