jtskips
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 02:35 PM |
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definitely out
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Moorron
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 03:05 PM |
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out for me too,
I also think there isn't enough info from either side but I always try and ask myself this:
We pay in £19 billion and get £10 billion out, so what am I getting for the other £9billion?
The 2 most talked about reasons to stay in are jobs and security, yet neither are linked to the EU anyway. We have some shared info with the USA and
they arnt in, security should be controlled by us on our borders. And the job issues I cant see as negative anyway, we have more buying power from the
EU then selling power and will continue to trade as we do now but with more protests from the French on the crossings.
Only issue I have is the instability of all nations if we leave until it all settles down, currencies may jump about a bit but its just as likely to
favour us then to damage us. So with stock markets already jumpy it might make it more of a roller coaster ride for a while.
Get out now, ride the coaster and get back to what both my granddads had fought for.
Sorry about my spelling, im an engineer and only work in numbers.
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morcus
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 03:23 PM |
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I don't think you'll ever really find out the full story from either side as it will be extremists shouting.
I do think we'd get more out of the EU if our representation in the EU was more united as the UK has a huge percentage of the EU population.
I think the only way we'll know what its like to not be in the EU is to leave which is a frightening prospect and personally I can't see
it being any better out than it is now.
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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jeffw
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 04:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Being selfish and looking to retire in 8 years I have a big mortgage and cannot afford a 2% hike in interest rates so will vote based upon that.
I just need someone to tell me what will happen to them if we go?
Fixed rate?
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jeffw
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 04:59 PM |
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We belong to an organisation which we give nigh on £20Billion and who have not had signed off accounts in 30 years....how is this sane?
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tegwin
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 05:37 PM |
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I would be all up for leaving if I had faith in our political system to make legal and logical laws..... im not sure they are... so perhaps having
some control (all be it a bit one sided) from the EU might be sensible... but I just dont have the facts, nor I suspect will I ever!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 05:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bi22le
I can't make a decision as i currently have no facts to base it on.
Once all the BS settles i can start to get an understanding of what consequences are off leaving compared to what we have.
And another poor soul, still trying to figure out the facts. So I'll be following bi22le's plan to wait for all the noise and fury to
dissipate.
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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blakep82
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 05:54 PM |
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I see the referendum threat as just a tool to get the eu to renegotiate the terms. I dont think we'll leave. We need the eu unfortunately. The
eu needs us (I think)
If cameron wanted us out he would have had the vote without trying to get a better deal surely? And now rush into a vote so soon?
Nah, we'll stay I reckon. Must have a read to see what he's agreed on. Will be a stay for me anyway
Im even starting to think alex salmond never wanted to win his neverendumb (correct term for scottish independence vote) he got his tax powers (lets
face it, hes still running the snp, sturgeon is only there because he couldnt be first minister and mp) and wont do anything with the powers he
demanded, he just likes to keep up the grievance politics
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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morcus
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 07:15 PM |
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If they'd won he'd have no reason to still be doing what he does, sometimes winning can be shooting yourself in the foot.
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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Toprivetguns
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| posted on 20/2/16 at 09:47 PM |
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Brussels has already decided that my vacuum cleaner wattage was too high !
What next, reducing a pint to 450ml 
Only drive as fast as your angel can fly... !
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jeffw
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 08:00 AM |
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Interesting Poll results. Out in the lead but don't knows could swing it.
Whatever your view on this, please make sure you cast your vote as this will be the most important vote in the next 20 years (unless you are in
Scotland where you have a "once in a lifetime" vote every 5 years)
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Oddified
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 09:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Interesting Poll results. Out in the lead but don't knows could swing it.
Whatever your view on this, please make sure you cast your vote as this will be the most important vote in the next 20 years (unless you are in
Scotland where you have a "once in a lifetime" vote every 5 years)
Life expectancy isn't so good up there  lol
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jeffw
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 09:44 AM |
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have a genuine rofl
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ali f27
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 11:31 AM |
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All down to the simplest of things if we pull out will we Joe public be better off nobody's persuaded me of that. There is no doubt the city
wants rid of the euro they make billions through foreign exchange we were all told the euro would fail it hasn't. We all talk of patriotism
France is in Europe and they are far more french than we act British. The french buy french goods we by BMW and Merc. If we pull out and in 2 years we
dont like it we will be voting to go back in. we might be better off having a look at what else is going on in the country as Cameron could be using
this to keep our minds off other things like Osborne missing all his financial targets. The Great Britain we all talk about would have been in Europe
running the show not whinging on the side lines but that Great Britain had statesmen and leaders not soft pillocks lining up for their directorships
at the bank. So i am a dont know and will be until somebody comes up with some honest answers and facts fancy i will have a long wait.
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Smoking Frog
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 11:58 AM |
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I'm for out.
It's bad enough getting the elected government to do what they promised without them having to answer to a higher power. The EU seemed a good
idea a few years ago, but it's turned into bloatware, a bureaucratic monster. In my opinion the EU should focus on trade and not dictate other
government policies. Lets leave the EU try it on our own for a few years, rejoin if it don't work out.
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 12:29 PM |
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We've never bothered actually participating in the EU, and now we moan because it hasn't turned out the way we want it... Whilst I think
there's plenty wrong with it, it's a solid idea in principle and there is an unprecedented appetite for reform.
We've either got to leave or actually participate; no more half arseing. Personally I'm for staying; I think that on the whole the EU is
a good thing.
Also as a side note, the EU gets blamed for a lot of stuff which it is not responsible for - the Tories decision not to save the Redcar steel plant
for instance.
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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jeffw
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 12:52 PM |
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Those who intend to vote to stay, a quick thought for you.
The EU lives by expanding so the next logical member will be Turkey and some of the ex-Soviet republics. Are you still up for staying?
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ali f27
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 01:12 PM |
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If it stops young men having to fight and die in pointless conflicts i am all for other country's being brought into the EU after all thats why
the Eu was formed in the first place. Mllions died for the peace we now have.
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perksy
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| posted on 21/2/16 at 01:25 PM |
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Do we really think that the brave folk who fought for our way of life would be proud of what we have now though ?
I've no problem with folk coming to live in this country *If* they are going to contribute, but I have an issue if they think they are going to
get something for nothing.
If you don't put anything in, you shouldn't take anything out...
With regards the EU, We seem to put a lot more into it than we get from it
Imagine putting £500 per month into an investment and then at the end of the year the bank turns around and says thanks for that but you can't
have it all back and its only worth 60% of what you've put in
You'd be looking elsewhere I'd have thought ?
This debate will run and run BUT I hope that this time folk will actually get up off their arses and VOTE
If you can't be bothered to vote then you loose the right to moan at the outcome in my book
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SteveWallace
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| posted on 23/2/16 at 10:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
We've never bothered actually participating in the EU, and now we moan because it hasn't turned out the way we want it... Whilst I think
there's plenty wrong with it, it's a solid idea in principle and there is an unprecedented appetite for reform.
We've either got to leave or actually participate; no more half arseing. Personally I'm for staying; I think that on the whole the EU is
a good thing.
Also as a side note, the EU gets blamed for a lot of stuff which it is not responsible for - the Tories decision not to save the Redcar steel plant
for instance.
+1
I was chairman of an EU wide business network for a while (a small part of my day job really, not as grand as it sounds) that looked at EU regulations
affecting our business sectors. It was obvious that the rest of the EU member states were far more engaged in the policy making process than the UK.
They took the role of MEP's far more seriously than we did and understood the policy making and negotiating process better.
I wonder how many of us could actually name our MEP's or give a clear description of where the balance of power and political alliances are at
EU level. We cannot expect to have influence in the process if we don't even understand it or participate properly.
Also, we demonise much of the regulation that comes out of Europe and assume that we wouldn't have any regulation without them. That's
nonsense, for sure we would want to amend some of it, but much of it we would have ended up developing for ourselves anyway.
It seems to me that the whole renegotiation of our membership terms has been a waste of time and has not achieved very much at all. No doubt the stay
in campaign will claim that its deal changing, but I suspect that most of us will make a decision on which way to vote regardless of the last couple
of months.
On balance, I'm just in favour of staying in, but I do worry that we will loose all negotiating power after a yes vote in the referendum and
that there will be a certain element of 'payback time' as a result. On the other hand, at least if we left then there will be less
excuses for when our politicians get it wrong and it will be an end of the stupid "EU say our sausages are not real sausages..." type
Daily Mail headlines.
Finally, if the Scottish population vote a different way to the English then there will inevitably be a big push for another referendum on
independence.
Either way, referendum day will be a good stay up with beer and curry night as the results come in.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 23/2/16 at 04:10 PM |
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The only way it would have worked is if the UK government had jumped in with both feet and took it seriously - like Germany and France - but, as
usual, our government (all parties) just prevaricated and performed a string of half-measures that were worse than doing nothing.
What makes it even worse is the way we treated our long-established trading partners (e.g. Canada, Australia and New Zealand) when we joined up - the
chances of re-establishing those ties are just about zero, I reckon.
I'll probably vote to stay in regardless, but with a lot of misgivings.
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ravingfool
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| posted on 23/2/16 at 06:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveWallace
quote:
Originally posted by Badger_McLetcher
We've never bothered actually participating in the EU, and now we moan because it hasn't turned out the way we want it... Whilst I think
there's plenty wrong with it, it's a solid idea in principle and there is an unprecedented appetite for reform.
We've either got to leave or actually participate; no more half arseing. Personally I'm for staying; I think that on the whole the EU is
a good thing.
Also as a side note, the EU gets blamed for a lot of stuff which it is not responsible for - the Tories decision not to save the Redcar steel plant
for instance.
+1
I was chairman of an EU wide business network for a while (a small part of my day job really, not as grand as it sounds) that looked at EU regulations
affecting our business sectors. It was obvious that the rest of the EU member states were far more engaged in the policy making process than the UK.
They took the role of MEP's far more seriously than we did and understood the policy making and negotiating process better.
I wonder how many of us could actually name our MEP's or give a clear description of where the balance of power and political alliances are at
EU level. We cannot expect to have influence in the process if we don't even understand it or participate properly.
Also, we demonise much of the regulation that comes out of Europe and assume that we wouldn't have any regulation without them. That's
nonsense, for sure we would want to amend some of it, but much of it we would have ended up developing for ourselves anyway.
It seems to me that the whole renegotiation of our membership terms has been a waste of time and has not achieved very much at all. No doubt the stay
in campaign will claim that its deal changing, but I suspect that most of us will make a decision on which way to vote regardless of the last couple
of months.
On balance, I'm just in favour of staying in, but I do worry that we will loose all negotiating power after a yes vote in the referendum and
that there will be a certain element of 'payback time' as a result. On the other hand, at least if we left then there will be less
excuses for when our politicians get it wrong and it will be an end of the stupid "EU say our sausages are not real sausages..." type
Daily Mail headlines.
Finally, if the Scottish population vote a different way to the English then there will inevitably be a big push for another referendum on
independence.
Either way, referendum day will be a good stay up with beer and curry night as the results come in.
Badger and Steve are absolutely right.
Problem is that now, having totally cocked up the last 40 years of European negotiating and development from a UK perspective how is it best to turn
things around? From outside, or inside?
For anyone who has ever tried to change the path or plans of any club, association or company will know, you cannot change things unless you get
properly involved on the inside. That might mean a lot of sh*t shovelling at first but the alternative is to watch everyone else do whatever the hell
is important to them and having no real control or influence whatsoever.
If we take our ball away to play on our own and cancel our regular membership there's a very real possibility that those countries we walk away
from now will charge us heavily to come back and play only when we feel like it.
We might be a relatively large economy at the moment but it's no small thing to walk away from trade agreements with a large proportion of
Europe and to potentially lose (short or long term) the benefit of trade agreements entered into through the EU with other nations.
I really don't like the bloated bureaucratic EU as it stands today. I agree with a lot of comments that it was supposed to be a free trade area
and its grown well beyond the original remit. On the other hand, there have been a lot of benefits to us directly and indirectly as EU membership is
not simply offered. There is a reason Turkey is not in the EU at the moment - they've failed to live up to the demands made of them and
negotiations have trundled along from time to time but going nowhere because there are currently fundamental differences between the Turkish regime
and the standards required by the EU. They might get offered EU-'lite' at some point (excluding the shengen treaty and Euro membership
for instance) in order to at add security for the region in this time of worrying behaviour from Russia but that would either be an end in itself or
only on the proviso of continuing reform to bring them up to full EU compliance.
I feel people seem to have very short memories and even shorter sight when they ask the question to be in or out of the EU.
My belief is that in the round, over the long term, membership benefits outweigh the negatives. All the current talk about sovereignty and
immigration is smoke and not at all relevant.
Parliament is still sovereign and has demonstrated that by pointing out that it can leave the EU. Signing up to bilateral treaties is simply a fancy
contract between countries. It doesn't mean we can't renege or leave when it suits us - not that I feel this is the case presently.
Likewise re migration, we (and by we I mean UK 'PLC' benefits hugely from the free movement of labour and so do all of you. You know
that cheap thing you want to buy or that cheap meal you want to eat; thanks be to cheap labour. The move away from attempting to maximise employment
started in the Thatcher government because by having a proportion of the country unemployed the theory goes that there is always a labour force
willing and able to be put to use at a reasonable price. I think this is not a good policy but it's got nothing to do with the EU which just
services our demand for labour.
It might amuse some of you to realise that between the UK and Poland there has been a net export of labour from the UK to Poland in recent years
because there is now greater demand for skilled labour there than here.
International treaty and economics is deeply complicated but our voice and importance in the world will only be diminished by leaving the EU.
[oops, bit of a rant, didn't mean to go on quite so much!]
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coozer
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| posted on 23/2/16 at 07:01 PM |
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Anybody see Greece with Simon Reeve? That was an eye opener to see what the EU has done to Greece. Ok so the Greek government fell for it but now
they hate Merkal as she trys to make them pay for what the EU forced on them..
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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craig1410
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| posted on 23/2/16 at 07:12 PM |
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Iceland has recovered from the financial crisis better than most of Europe has. When my wife and I went there on holiday the people we spoke to were
very relieved that they had avoided joining the EU. At one point they were going to join just to get the help they needed but in the end they have
turned things around by themselves and seem to be going from strength to strength.
I'm fairly undecided on the question myself but I don't believe it would be a disaster if we left political union and continued with
trading agreements only. After all, many countries in the EU will very much want to continue to trade with the UK as we are a big importer of european
made goods.
I hope by the time I come to place my vote I am better informed on the pros and cons because right now I might as well flip a coin!
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coozer
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| posted on 23/2/16 at 07:38 PM |
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European made goods?? Every thing, apart from salad, we have has 'made in China' on it..
Sorry just checked, phone and tablet have Korea on them...
Only thing I'm a bit nervous about the exit is moving to Spain, but there are plenty Russians living there who don't get treated any
different.
I'm out, nothing they can say or do will change my mind. Even if Germany invaded we can fight them off again!
This is Great Britian, we have in the past, and can again stand on our own two feet! I wonder what the Queen thinks about it all (even if she is
German)
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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