zetec
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 09:11 AM |
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Sorry to hear the news Hellfire, can't think of a better reason to start building again!
I must agree with the talk of tyre temp. There is no way a light car will get standard road tyres up to temp in the winter. If I was using the car in
the wet/winter I would get another set of wheels with 165s fitted. If you want to see an example of how important tyre temp is try and blag a ride in
a Kart. First two laps on most tracks you are slip sliding around, get them to the right temp and they grip grip grip, over heat them and slip sliding
away again.
" I only registered to look at the pictures, now I'm stuck with this username for the rest of my life!"
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phelpsa
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 10:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Liam
Not nice to hear of all this winter carnage at all. Glad everybody is as well as can be expected and, er, has plenty to do over the winter and
spring.
Kind of glad I'm doing a 4WD
But now i'm thinking do I sell my lovely 15" OZ super Ls with 195/50s and get some 13s? Hmmmm.
Sort of aside... I notice Caterham spec 13" alloys for their most basic models, rising through 14" up to 15" in the Superlight R400
- presumably offering progressively more 'bling' to progressively richer and probably more over-fashion conscious customers. But
it's back down to 13" for the R500. Are they passing off as the quest for lighter weight an acknowledgment that 15" wheels and low
profile tyres might be a bit too dangerous for their most frantic model?
Or is that a conspiracy theory too far? If anything I guess it shows at least that Caterham feel 15" wheels are not ideal for the ultimate
performance of their lightest most hardcore model.
But the new 200/260 bhp CSR model is back on 15s. Hmmmmmmm. But that's probably not R500 light. Maybe the suitability of lower profile tyres
increases with weight? Makes sense. So maybe BECs should definately be on 13s, and I might stick with my 15s...
Liam
It's the R300 that had 15" wheels, but now 15" is an option and 13" come as standard on all caterham cars, except the new CSR.
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craig1410
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 11:10 AM |
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Hi,
Sorry to hear of the loss of Hellfire. Glad you are okay though!
On the subject of tyres and wheels, I am currently looking for a suitable set for my build and would appreciate some advice.
I have Sierra rear disk brakes (Cortina fronts) and can't get 13" wheels to fit (tried Capri Laser's a while back). I would settle
for 14" wheels if they willl fit over the calipers but I think only steel 14's will do so(?) So that leaves me with 15" wheels...
I have GTS Tuning rear wheel arches (9" version) which limit me on my +4" chassis to 195 or maybe just 205 wide tyres anyway and I was
thinking of 195/50-15" as a nice popular option. In fact I am hoping to find a set of alloys from a Ford Fiesta or Mondeo or similar, second
hand. I also considered getting a set of wheels and tyres from Halfords for £280 using the supplied tyres for track day fun and getting a decent set
for the road. My engine is a Rover V8 (~180BHP) as many of you will know which has big torque but should perhaps be more "subtle" than the
BEC engines to control (Right?)
However, this thread and other "crash" threads certainly focuses the mind a bit and I would appreciate any thoughts on how a set of
15" 195/50's would perform on my heavier than standard Locost. I also have a de-dion back end which may help or hinder (help I think?) the
sudden back end breakaway problem.
Cheers,
Craig.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 12:21 PM |
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quote:
We can add to this, by taking into account the setup of most road going se7ens. From my observations, and a lot of what is said on here, I'd
suggest that most are oversprung and overdamped. Not conducive to aiding mechanical grip. Road tyres rely on mechanical grip, sticky track tyres to
adhesion. Track tyres and the everyday road are not good friends.
Id'e agree with the above, the spring rates on the GT1 are lower than a lot of rates i see quoted and used on road sevens. I'm no expert
but was happy to be guided by a bloke with 30+ years race car set up experience at a very high level. All four springs where changed when he had it, i
was sceptical at the time (missguided i thought a race car had to be as stiff as a go kart) but it played a part in transforming the car. Now just
need to transform me into summat about 2 stone lighter.....
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donut
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 01:02 PM |
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Well when i get my next 7 i think i'm going to take it somewhere where i can loon about so i will know where and at what point the car brakes
away. This will give an indication to how it performes on the road so i will know how fast to go round corners. If it's wet/greasy then
i'll SLOW DOWN which is all we really need to do.
I must confess that when i had my last Indy all i wanted to do all the time was go fast! After so many 7's crashing i think some sensible
restraint is in order!!!
Andy
[Edited on 8/1/05 by donut]
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phelpsa
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 01:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Hi,
Sorry to hear of the loss of Hellfire. Glad you are okay though!
On the subject of tyres and wheels, I am currently looking for a suitable set for my build and would appreciate some advice.
I have Sierra rear disk brakes (Cortina fronts) and can't get 13" wheels to fit (tried Capri Laser's a while back). I would settle
for 14" wheels if they willl fit over the calipers but I think only steel 14's will do so(?) So that leaves me with 15" wheels...
I have GTS Tuning rear wheel arches (9" version) which limit me on my +4" chassis to 195 or maybe just 205 wide tyres anyway and I was
thinking of 195/50-15" as a nice popular option. In fact I am hoping to find a set of alloys from a Ford Fiesta or Mondeo or similar, second
hand. I also considered getting a set of wheels and tyres from Halfords for £280 using the supplied tyres for track day fun and getting a decent set
for the road. My engine is a Rover V8 (~180BHP) as many of you will know which has big torque but should perhaps be more "subtle" than the
BEC engines to control (Right?)
However, this thread and other "crash" threads certainly focuses the mind a bit and I would appreciate any thoughts on how a set of
15" 195/50's would perform on my heavier than standard Locost. I also have a de-dion back end which may help or hinder (help I think?) the
sudden back end breakaway problem.
Cheers,
Craig.
Nope, your wrong  14" alloys do fit, I have a set of ex caterham 14" alloys and theres about 1/4" gap.
Adam
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pbura
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 02:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
On the subject of tyres and wheels, I am currently looking for a suitable set for my build and would appreciate some advice.
Might want to check out Toyo Proxes T1-S tires for a road car. Rated very highly for dry and wet grip, and some of the boys here have said that
they're quite good for track days.
Yoko AVS ES100 are very similar, and I would jump for whichever was the best deal.
Pete
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 03:57 PM |
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also a lower load rating will be more benficial since a higher load rating nedes more work to make it heat up and give grip - so the lowly tyres are
more suited down to the general lightness of the vehicle .
Because a low profile tyre is stiffer , the contact patch gets wider , but shorter as opposed tp longer and thinner on a higher profile tyre . you can
get an indication of this sort of thing by looking at tyre tread , michelin Tb15 have no fancy tread pattern , merely just grooves , but are brill in
wet and have good stick in the dry .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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craig1410
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 06:17 PM |
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Hi Adam,
Thanks for pointing out that there are some 14" wheels which will fit. I might look into this further. I was looking at Peugeot 205 GTI wheels
and IIRC the 1.6GTI has 14" wheels and the 1.9GTI has 15" wheels, both with 108mm PCD albeit with a slightly too large centre hole. I was
aiming for the larger wheel but the smaller one should be easier to come by if it will clear the calipers.
First thing I'll need to do is try a few different tyre sizes in the wheel arch and see what my maximum overall diameter is going to be and then
take it from there. I'm not bothered about gearing or ride height at this stage but I would like a 195 wide (or at the very least 185) to give
me some chance of getting the torque of the V8 onto the ground in the dry...
Cheers,
Craig.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 06:21 PM |
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195/55 14 Yoko A-048R sounds about right for your purpose. 13" split rims will also (just) fit with the handbrake spring bent a bit.
Adam
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woodster
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 07:10 PM |
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sorry to hear about hellfire it was my fav mk glad to hear the drivers ok ................. can't wait to see HELLFIRE2
all the best woodster
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Hellfire
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 10:17 PM |
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All this response to our little incident is very reassuring, welcome and very motivating.
What amazes me is the speed at which a few people 'assume' speed/wet/corners/over-wide, low-profile tyre sizes were involved.
The only clear fact from this, is that the car was travelling too fast for the situation.
The new car will be suitably less shod though...
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type r1
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 10:24 PM |
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craig1410,
hi.
why don't you buy my wheels.
brand new and unused 6 X 14 compomotives (look like CXRs, only with a centre cap, and weigh 6.3kg each) shod with 185 60 14 yokohama A539 rubber.
they are four stud, 108 pcd and et 33 offset (ford fitment).
£384 + carriage.
regards,
dom.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 10:29 PM |
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I was waiting for that post
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phelpsa
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| posted on 8/1/05 at 11:28 PM |
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Believe it or not, I started my car before you hellfire, and my chassis isn't even painted yet
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type r1
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 09:45 AM |
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adam john phelps,
all dese late nights is bad 4 u, u no. look what's happened 2 your face.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 09:49 AM |
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How the hell do you know my middle name
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flak monkey
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 10:17 AM |
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Its in your profile
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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phelpsa
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 10:23 AM |
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Dammit, my yahoo id
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Marcus
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 11:17 AM |
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Craig,
you talk about peugeot wheels, I put 405 Mi16 wheels on mine with 195/50x15 tyres. They remind me of Revolution 5 spokes. Car handles well and with
road tyres, is very predictable when going sideways!!
Marcus
Marcus
Because kits are for girls!!
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 02:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
What amazes me is the speed at which a few people 'assume' speed/wet/corners/over-wide, low-profile tyre sizes were involved.
The only clear fact from this, is that the car was travelling too fast for the situation.
I hope I didn't come into the 'assumers' category! My only observation was on how many of the recent crashes were in BECs - I just
wondered why.
Hope you build the next one soon,
David
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alister667
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 04:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Liam
Not nice to hear of all this winter carnage at all. Glad everybody is as well as can be expected and, er, has plenty to do over the winter and
spring.
Kind of glad I'm doing a 4WD
But now i'm thinking do I sell my lovely 15" OZ super Ls with 195/50s and get some 13s? Hmmmm.
Sort of aside... I notice Caterham spec 13" alloys for their most basic models, rising through 14" up to 15" in the Superlight R400
- presumably offering progressively more 'bling' to progressively richer and probably more over-fashion conscious customers. But
it's back down to 13" for the R500. Are they passing off as the quest for lighter weight an acknowledgment that 15" wheels and low
profile tyres might be a bit too dangerous for their most frantic model?
Or is that a conspiracy theory too far? If anything I guess it shows at least that Caterham feel 15" wheels are not ideal for the ultimate
performance of their lightest most hardcore model.
But the new 200/260 bhp CSR model is back on 15s. Hmmmmmmm. But that's probably not R500 light. Maybe the suitability of lower profile tyres
increases with weight? Makes sense. So maybe BECs should definately be on 13s, and I might stick with my 15s...
Liam
I suspect the reason Cateringvan went for 13s on the R500 was to do with (overall) weight primarily and unsprung weight secondly.
I have 2 sets of wheels/tyres, 195 x 60 15" for the road and a set of much lower profile 15" 'track only' Pirelli competition
tyres - I can't remember the profile, but I do notice the lower profile tyres while providing more grip (in the dry) do break away with a lot
less 'notice'.
Even with the tall road tyres I have *very* nearly been caught out a couple of times on the road - it's mainly due to a slightly over heavy
right foot and a fiercely responsive engine.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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Jasper
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 08:50 PM |
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Interesting reading on tyres - I was running 195 - 50 -15's Toyo Proxys. Up till this point they had always been quite predictable. I have slid
the car around under power on many track days, and slid it around in the wet and dry on the road.
I think what caught me out was the patchyness of the surface. It was mostly dry that morning, but as I put the power on (gently!) coming out of a
corner I had a small amount of sideways movement on a damp patch followed by a lot of grip on a dry patch, catapulting me straight into the verge and
off into trees. I think if it had a been completely wet the slide would have been either more controllable (unlikely) or at least I would have spun
right round and therefore probabaly just been embarrassed rather than crashed.
The only thing that would have stopped this happening would be to not have gone out in those conditions or just have taken it much easier than I
was.
I don't the the cars are the problem, it's just that when we get them we drive them as 'sports cars' not MPV's
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alister667
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| posted on 9/1/05 at 10:19 PM |
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That's a very good point about patchiness of road conditions. I live on top of a hill and at the bottom of it there's a gentle 90 degree
bend going up the hill. I've driven round this bend 1000's of times in the past, was coming round it a few weeks ago in dry(ish)
conditions. A water main, was leaking and caused a wet and greasy patch just at the end of the corner. I was coming back from leaving a dvd back to
the rental shop, not driving at all quickly. I was gently (for a BEC anyhow!) accelerating out of the corner to go up the hill only to find the back
of the car trying to overtake the front. I steered into it and took my foot of the accelrator, the back wheels went back onto dry and gripped, the
whole car luched about a good bit, I kept it on the road OK, but if another car had been coming or I had been going at all quickly I was toast. It
can happen to anyone.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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locoboy
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| posted on 10/1/05 at 09:06 AM |
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Truely gutted about it hellfire, I was hoping to catch a glimps of the beast at a show but never did.
I have followed your build diary from month to month with great interest and it has provided me with enthusiasm and in with the bargain i have pinched
quite a few ides from it too
I hope the next one is as good if not better.
ATB
Locoboy
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