ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 05:38 PM |
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Good point, its going to cause differences in angular velocity over a 360 degree roatation, shouldnt cause a longitudinal pulsing AFAICS
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Bob C
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 05:47 PM |
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By design, Hooke joints (UJs) rotate about a point which is the intersection of the 2 axes of the spider. So there's no in and out.
Thankfully!!!
cheers
Bob
PS some of the crap UJs you find in socket sets don't have intersecting axes on the spider - that would cause in/out & all sorts of wobble!
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cossey
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| posted on 24/4/06 at 05:56 PM |
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by pulsing i means the angular velocity will not be constant nothing to do with longitudinal motion.
the angle of the uj when the the 2 flanges are parallel wil be only a couple of degrees at most and therefore the pulsing effect (which will only
effect the propshaft between the joints) is fairly low. however if you put the engine in at an angle the front uj could be running at anything up to
15-20 degrees at which point the pulsing becomes far greater. this pulsing is going to cause fatigue on the welded joint at the front end of the prop
which will lead eventually to failure. prop failures arent a good thing and can trash both the car and the driver.
therefore you do not want to be running the joints at any angle larger than is necessary and preferably as low as possible. so keep the output
flange parallel with the diff flange or at most maybe 5 degrees off (engine pointing towards the righthand side)
[Edited on 24/4/06 by cossey]
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phelpsa
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 08:00 PM |
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I'm confused. Could anyone draw a small diagram explaining this for me? 
Adam
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JoelP
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 08:11 PM |
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adam, if you get a lego universal joint and bend it to 90 degrees, you will see! You have to turn each side alternately by 180 degrees This is the
same effect taken to the extreme.
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tks
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 09:11 PM |
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offcourse!
When i was mounting my engine...
i did the plane way wy?
you need to compensate..
Sow in fact you want the diff (or centre bearing flange) on the same plane as the engine output flange..
it would give you the minimal vibrations and trouble. While one UJ needs to popout on the other side it will popin...etc..
I have now a angle on my prop of minimal 20degrees..
it works great and in first and second no vibrations...(could test the rest)
the only problem/mental problem i have is that as anyone knows the UJ wants to straighten itself up...
sow the bearingloads on the engine bearing and the centre bearing will be sky high when using big angels....(and high revs)
thats the reason i'm now bulding a transmission box to be able to put everything in its centre place/plane...
and take away the load from the engine bearing/centre bearing and the UJ's.
Tks
in the attachment pdf you see the gearbox i'm going to build.
in it there will be oil, chain and 2 pinions wich will also make my 3,92 diff to a 3,62 one...
any comments are welcome..
- Aluminio==> Aluminium (Alloy)
- C25 ==> carbon steel 0,25C right guys??
etc..
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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tks
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 09:12 PM |
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Attachment
Attachment
[Edited on 27/4/06 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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cossey
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| posted on 26/4/06 at 09:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tks
When i was mounting my engine...
i did the plane way wy?
you need to compensate..
Sow in fact you want the diff (or centre bearing flange) on the same plane as the engine output flange..
it would give you the minimal vibrations and trouble. While one UJ needs to popout on the other side it will popin...etc..
I have now a angle on my prop of minimal 20degrees..
it works great and in first and second no vibrations...(could test the rest)
the only problem/mental problem i have is that as anyone knows the UJ wants to straighten itself up...
sow the bearingloads on the engine bearing and the centre bearing will be sky high when using big angels....(and high revs)
thats the reason i'm now bulding a transmission box to be able to put everything in its centre place/plane...
and take away the load from the engine bearing/centre bearing and the UJ's.
Tks
in the attachment pdf you see the gearbox i'm going to build.
in it there will be oil, chain and 2 pinions wich will also make my 3,92 diff to a 3,62 one...
any comments are welcome..
- Aluminio==> Aluminium (Alloy)
- C25 ==> carbon steel 0,25C right guys??
etc..
vibrations are proportional to prop speed so will be worse at high revs in 6th (exactly when you dont want them)
if the 2 flanges the prop attaches to are parallel then vibrations shouldnt be that bad the problems are more that the cancelling effect of the 2
joints will be lost if the end faces arent parallel.
the best possible setup would be an irs rear end with the output sprocket and the diff flange both parallel and concentric that way the prop would
all be at the same angular velocity.
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G.Man
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 05:17 AM |
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Cossey
You are absolutely correct in what you are saying, but in reality, there are very few bec 7's out there with parallel faces...
All the ones I have seen have the engine offset slightly and running parallel to the top left chassis rail..
It is not ideal, but a product of the space you have to work with...
Perhaps the Torque resiliant tube soaks up some of the vibes?
here is a pic of mine
another pic
[Edited on 27/4/06 by G.Man]
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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tks
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 05:52 AM |
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Parrallel faces
The needings are simple you need to be in the same plane not centric (Not nececary) best performance would you have if you don´t use any angle in any
direccion..
in fact you take away the need of a UJ.
IN the pic you see the 2 situations.
The first 2 is the minimal needings (the same plane)
Left one islooking from above the other when looking from the engine side.
(for 3d you need minimal 2 2D sketches)
the last one is the ideal one..wich just means straight to..
Regards,
Tks
 
Rescued attachment PLane.JPG
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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wildchild
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 07:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chris mason
My prop uses cv joints instead of u/j's, if it's good enough for a mass produced honda then it's good enough for me
Chris
where did you source your CV joints from?
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cossey
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 08:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Cossey
You are absolutely correct in what you are saying, but in reality, there are very few bec 7's out there with parallel faces...
All the ones I have seen have the engine offset slightly and running parallel to the top left chassis rail..
It is not ideal, but a product of the space you have to work with...
Perhaps the Torque resiliant tube soaks up some of the vibes?
here is a pic of mine
another pic
[Edited on 27/4/06 by G.Man]
with yours i would have moved the back slightly further over to the drivers side ther looks like there is about another 1.5". in the end unless
you have a wider chassis/smaller engine then you are never going to get it perfect you just need to try and minimise the angles.
here are a few pics of how i think it should be done (yes it is a r1 so slightly smaller and a fury but the fury is of very similar size to the
average locost (the chassis is based on the striker so very 7 like))
1
2
3
[Edited on 27/4/06 by cossey]
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G.Man
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 05:03 PM |
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R1 is a different beast to the zx12r due to its stacked gearbox...
Mine is as far over to the drivers side as possible without losing footwell space, a no no with my size 11 feet...
Fury doesnt compare to a 7 as the engine bay is wider as well as the passenger compartment ... If you look at where the pivots on the wish bones are,
then bear in mind on a 7 they are in the same position, but outboard of the frame rails you will get the drift....
It may be striker geometry, but the dimensions are very different...
It just wasnt possible to go parellel on the sprocket-reverse box shaft, but as i say, some of the vibe will be absorbed by the TRT I fitted...
something far more critical on a bec IMHO
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 06:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
You are absolutely correct in what you are saying, but in reality, there are very few bec 7's out there with parallel faces...
All the ones I have seen have the engine offset slightly and running parallel to the top left chassis rail..
Not saying one is significantly better than the other, but I think this is more an MK / LSIS thing to be honest, if you look at all the Westfields,
the Fisher / Sylva cars etc, and even a lot of Locosts (STM etc) they all have parallel engines, its only a few Locost-esque suppliers that have
adopted the route of putting it along the chassis rail.
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cossey
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 07:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
R1 is a different beast to the zx12r due to its stacked gearbox...
Mine is as far over to the drivers side as possible without losing footwell space, a no no with my size 11 feet...
Fury doesnt compare to a 7 as the engine bay is wider as well as the passenger compartment ... If you look at where the pivots on the wish bones are,
then bear in mind on a 7 they are in the same position, but outboard of the frame rails you will get the drift....
It may be striker geometry, but the dimensions are very different...
It just wasnt possible to go parellel on the sprocket-reverse box shaft, but as i say, some of the vibe will be absorbed by the TRT I fitted...
something far more critical on a bec IMHO
the fury is actually fairly narrow across the passenger compartment it just doesnt have the same level of taper at the front and has lower rails so
you can get far closer to the edge.
r1 striker
a better example maybe
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tks
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 08:39 PM |
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HUH??
Parallel faces doesn't require that
the angle is 0 degrees beaware of that!!
Parallel faces is nothing more then that
that both flanges are 90degrees to the same plane...
like in the sketch!!
ok will try this way.
In fact an prop axle makes a Z patron..
the top of the z ( - ) is the flange plane..
the / of the z is the prop
the bottom - is the diff flange plane..
what the UJ requires is that the angles are the same (like in the Z)...
then its a bonus if you can get the angle (in every direction of the / as low as possible..)
what couldn't work will be that one UJ
is straight... and the other does have angle...that would be bad and give vibrations..
one UJ has to compensate the other..
i aligned my engine with the radiator member..
Reg.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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G.Man
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 09:43 PM |
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TKS
we understand, but to have a parallel face to the axle, the engine must be square in the chassis...
Chris
It depends on the motor install, with a blade or r1, its easier, with a zx12r and the Busa, its far more difficult due to the length of the motor..
Cossey
Again, the R1 is a better install due to its stacked gearbox... its a short motor...
But hey, there are enough running of both types to have shown any issues by now
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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cossey
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| posted on 27/4/06 at 10:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
TKS
we understand, but to have a parallel face to the axle, the engine must be square in the chassis...
Chris
It depends on the motor install, with a blade or r1, its easier, with a zx12r and the Busa, its far more difficult due to the length of the motor..
Cossey
Again, the R1 is a better install due to its stacked gearbox... its a short motor...
But hey, there are enough running of both types to have shown any issues by now
i know the r1 is very small but i couldnt find any pictures of zx12r in a striker, ive got some busa pics but i cant find them atm.
on your pics there looks like there is a resonable gap between the front of the engine and the chassis rail any reason for this?
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/4/06 at 06:02 AM |
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Yup, oil filter changes...
It has just enuff room to unscrew the oil filter....
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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tks
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| posted on 28/4/06 at 06:45 AM |
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Square mounted
If you say squera mounted wy didn´t you do it then??
Its the first rule IMHO to follow a succesfull
vibr. level.
Siw IMO you should have less room between the chasis rail and the cil most away from you (when in the car)
The gap between the rail and cil 1 should be bigger in fact creating the angle that member is mounted on...
anyway the oil filter change is a bloddy good reason for doing it this way.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/4/06 at 07:00 AM |
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TKS
Because it wasnt possible to get the engine where we wanted with the ZX12R..
no, actually it was, but would have meant a big compromise to the driver footwell area which meant a poor driving experience for my 6'5"
frame...
Oil filter change took me about an hour last time, it was that hard to get off... Had to pierce with a screwdriver as there was no room to get a
filter wrench or a strap in there properly...
Believe me, Marc and I worked for ages to figure out the best engine positon.. In the end something had to be sacrificed, and I took the risk of
vibration, as that is what he has on hi R1 powered car I went in, and the vibes were not an issue...
I agree its not an engineering perfect way to do it, what I am saying is that in reality it makes little difference...
A transfer box would have been best I guess, then I could move the engine more forward and have had more room for the dry sump plumbing
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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tks
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| posted on 28/4/06 at 03:51 PM |
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ok
i believe you offcourse,
tellus how is live at cyprus and wich language do they speak over there?
How is the MOT going on??
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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G.Man
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| posted on 28/4/06 at 04:01 PM |
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Life is good, they speak english and greek, or a version of both anyway... lol
MOT will be done as soon as my drive is useable, hopefully week or so..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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wildchild
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 03:06 PM |
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Certainly given me some food for thought this thread.
I might take a more serious look at chopping 6" or so out of the passenger footwell to put the engine in a wider bit of the chassis. I'm
sure there's far more length in there than you need.
I like the idea of CV joints if I could get hold of some that were suitable for the purpose.
I did toy with the idea of a halfshaft off some suitably high powered car to bring drive back to the middle of the car and square it up, then a fairly
conventional prop from there to the back, but I'm quite wary of spinning the things at 3.5 times their designed speed.
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