BKLOCO
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| posted on 15/5/06 at 09:33 PM |
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This is the dumbest advice I have ever heard in this forum.
I am an electrician who has worked in the petroleum industry.
I just hope that I never get to work along side you!
And I'm an electro mechanical engineer who has worked with flamable liquids AND EXPLOSIVES for more years than I care to confess to. This is why
I have a collection of hard brass screwdrivers and spanners etc.(they wont draw a spark)
I would like you to explain (in detail) how the hell you are going to draw a spark from alluminium to steel contact?
How you are going to draw a static spark on the INSIDE of a conductive enclosure? (ever heard of Faradays cage?)
This is just scaremongering for the sake of it.
If I were nearer I would go and drill the bl00dy thing for the guy.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!! 
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nitram38
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| posted on 16/5/06 at 03:21 AM |
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If you are a professional then you should know the health and safety at work act?
PPE is the last resort.
In otherwords, during a risk accessment, your first question is, "Can this job be done in the ABSENCE of explosive vapour", not "Oh
good, here I am going to do this the most dangerous way I can and prove how clever I am".
You may have spark proof tools, but your average novice does not.
The advice to use a battery drill in an earlier post is downright stupid.
I think you will find that you cannot take any form or electric drill into a petrolchemical plant.
As a professional electrician, I would not give out advice to a novice to work on equipment with vapour present, anymore than I would to advise a
beginner to work on live mains.
If you want to do it, then fine, but do not advise others to try, who have no experiece or training to do this safely.
As to the faraday comment, I have seen a small spark, hit a 1/2" hole in a 2 foot square gas meter.
It became a 6 foot jagged piece of metal very quickly, plus it went 40 feet into the air! ( the meter was dis-connected but had a small amount of gas
left in the centre of the meter in the regulator)
[Edited on 16/5/2006 by nitram38]
[Edited on 16/5/2006 by nitram38]
[Edited on 16/5/2006 by nitram38]
[Edited on 16/5/2006 by nitram38]
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 16/5/06 at 04:28 AM |
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I'm very sorry but you are totally missing the point here.
You CANNOT draw a spark between steel and alluminium/Steel and brass/steel and bronze etc etc. The material is simply too soft
I am waiting to hear your explanation of how this "spark" is going to be produced by any means other than electrically.
We also need to get this debate into some perspective here!!!!
We are NOT talking about petrochemical plant. Where all electical equiplent must be certified as intrinsically safe.
We are talking about an alluminium fuel tank that has been used.
If you are that worried about risk I would suggest that you should NOT be planning to drive a kit car.
The risk of having an accident in it is FAR greater than the risk involved in drilling a hole in an alluminium petrol tank!
It would once again seem that this debate is not getting anywhere so this will be my last post on the subject. I hope we can just ammicably agree to
disagree.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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nitram38
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| posted on 16/5/06 at 04:51 AM |
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I never said that the hand drill method would cause a spark, but what if something else did?
No vapour=no explosion.
Pretty simple really.
As to the car comments, you know nothing about me or my driving or my car building skills, so this point is irrelevent to the discussion on whether
the tank is safe to drill or not.
The fact that the question has been asked, shows that this person is unsure.
If you have any doubts, then use the safest method possible is all I am suggesting.
An extra couple of hours on a 3 year build will not make a difference, but 3 years recovering from burns might.
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Major Stare
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| posted on 16/5/06 at 08:23 AM |
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Blimey, come on lads, calm down.
I have taken notes of everyones reply and i thank everyone for there concern.
The only other place i can drill is on the filler neck, pushing a damp cloth into the neck below where im drilling.
Jon "FISH"
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ZetecVan
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| posted on 17/5/06 at 05:45 PM |
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I'm glad I didn't read this thread before I drilled my tank.
I took out the sender unit, then realised I couldn't put the return connector there, so the next best place was at the top of the tank above it.
I stood the tank up outside (empty of course) and put some card in the hole the sender unit fits in (to catch the swarf) and slowly drilled (with my
cordless drill) a hole in the top. I then changed the bit to a cone drill and enlarged the hole. The card caught all the swarf. I fitted the return
pipe connector. Job done in half an hour.
Looks like I took my life in my hands as I was wearing nylon Y fronts at the time!
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MikeR
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| posted on 17/5/06 at 05:47 PM |
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yeah - if the fashion police had seen you, ye gods, you'd be in prison now with a burly bloke calling you mavis!
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Major Stare
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| posted on 17/5/06 at 08:00 PM |
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LOL
Do you think my idea will work then...push a damp cloth into the filler neck below where im drilling ?
Jon "FISH"
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ZetecVan
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| posted on 17/5/06 at 10:15 PM |
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I thought about the filler neck at first, but then soon realised the connector I got had to be on a flat surface. During the engine conversion
there's been two places where I've had to drill a round 'pipe' and fit a connector. One was in the exhaust for the lambda, and
the other was in a water hose connector for the water sensor. Both times I had some problems getting a decent seal.
I wouldn't put the return pipe in a round filler neck for that reason, especially as the pipe in question is pressurised.
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jono_misfit
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| posted on 18/5/06 at 10:04 PM |
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Think you'll have to make up your own mind on how your going to do this.
As guy above says its quite difficult to get a good seal from unions to a curved surface. If theres a flat on the tube it would be a better position.
You definatley not got space at the edge of the sender / float plate to put in a union?
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Peteff
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| posted on 18/5/06 at 11:15 PM |
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Sh!t.....
I sometimes wonder how I've ever survived this long without the internet to stop me doing stupid stuff. If I was using a hand drill I would have
put a blob of grease on to catch the swarf and drilled through without even asking.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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MikeR
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| posted on 19/5/06 at 09:24 AM |
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bear in mind some of us are a lot more techincal than others. I'm sure my dad would intrinsically know the answers to half the questions on here
yet he can't work a PC. I can work a PC without thinking about it and intrinsically know the answers to a lot of problems, yet when it comes to
cars i haven't got that natural background.
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tks
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| posted on 27/5/06 at 10:49 PM |
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mhhh
My opinion...
Fill the tank with water...
and drill 2 holes!!
one on the botto of the tank, where you wled a nut! you then have created a drain plug!!
you also drill the above one and put on that return pipe!!
anyway what i would do is just empty the thing..
and let it as open as you can during one week outside...
(day and night) the fapour will then be gone...
the last action you could do is
heating it up slowly sow the vapour action is going faster sow the fuel empties of fapour...
or use compressed air to make the fapour air mixture more lean....
also i ALWAYS would test the tank before drilling it with some open fire.
if it explosed then you know you did the right thing...if it doesn't you are sure that while drilling / welding it wont happen to!!
if it has some fapour in it (after all those action, it cant be much and you will hear a woush... and at least you are prepared for a woush...
and when one woush has been there there won't be another one...
i also opinion that if you can make the job safer by taking the tank out then i just would do it!!
Its simple if there is any thing you can do to make the risk smaller wy you wouldn't do it???
wy do the job and risk that you son is coming taking a look and that he smokes or comes showing his new zippo???
think i would just fill it with water,
make the hole, drain it out as you can, test it with fire, weld it if needed....
and when you have everything sorted you will like it even more!!
water is a good thing because fuel stays on top of it sow you help it getting out to the last drup... also when near the entrance you could easyly try
to ignit it in fact it would explode anymore just burn.....
also have to say that Fuel/Vapour/Drilling/TANK
isn't an easy theme to talk about safely...
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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tks
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| posted on 27/5/06 at 10:52 PM |
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details...
also make sure you disconnect any hoses/ fuel pumps..etc..
because if there comes woush you won't want the flame in the pump or fuel line...
etc. etc.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Major Stare
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 01:18 PM |
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Ok guys.........im going in.........
Its took 15 mins to remove the tank and 2 mins to drain about a pint of fuel.
Time to drill, if i dont reply to this post soon - call the fire brigade
Jon "FISH"
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tks
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 01:20 PM |
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do we need to call?
grrr....
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Major Stare
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| posted on 5/6/06 at 01:43 PM |
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Done it !
Attached a picture..........
Washing the tank out now with water.
Jon "FISH"
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.jpg)
