flak monkey
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:39 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by clairetoo
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
I am referring to dragcars (not necessarily the US ones), both the top fuelers and the pro stock.
David
[Edited on 16/9/08 by flak monkey]
Top fuel cars get most of their 6000 hp from the fuel (nitro methane) , and it takes something like 1000 hp to drive the supercharger....
Pro stock cars are normally-aspirated , not supercharged 
Dammit 
Well you get my point. If turbos were soooo much better they would be using them.
Raceline are supercharging duratecs, giving a 70bhp power boost. What would a turbo give you?
Swings and round-a-bouts both have advanatages and disadvantages.
Like I said, I fancy a challenge, not an easy ride.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
|
|
AlphaX
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:47 PM |
|
|
i would go for the VAG 1.8T and keep the turbo. you can do 230bhp with the smaller turbo and other injectors. Or, if you're set on a
supercharger, get teh 1.4TSI which has both a turbo and supercharger. The turbo takes it over from the supercharger at about 2000rpm. It has the best
of both worlds, and does 170bhp stock but will do more.
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:48 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonYou can read all about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger
You don't want to put too much faith in the accuracy of information on Wikipedia IME.
Turbochargers use some of the waste energy in the exhaust, but they also significantly increase back pressure (higher pumping losses), and require
either lower compression (lower thermal efficiency off boost) or higher octane fuel (£££) for any reasonable amount of boost.
It's possible to "win" with a turbo over NA by running an engine with high static CR and allowing a very limited amount of boost,
but this isn't the way to high power outputs if you have to run pump fuel.
|
|
|
clairetoo
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:50 PM |
|
|
To give some idea of what a turbo can do for a standard engine - while looking for Mx3 tuning goodies () I stumbled across some nutter who had
swapped the 1.8 V6 for a 2.5 from an Mx6 , then just bunged on a huge turbo to the otherwise totally stock engine .
The resulting 406 bhp - at the wheels ( ) must have been fun !
I'll see if I can find it if your interested ?
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 04:54 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by mr hendersonYou can read all about it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger
You don't want to put too much faith in the accuracy of information on Wikipedia IME.
Turbochargers use some of the waste energy in the exhaust, but they also significantly increase back pressure (higher pumping losses), and require
either lower compression (lower thermal efficiency off boost) or higher octane fuel (£££) for any reasonable amount of boost.
It's possible to "win" with a turbo over NA by running an engine with high static CR and allowing a very limited amount of boost,
but this isn't the way to high power outputs if you have to run pump fuel.
Well, comparing what you've said there with the Wikipedia article, I think I'm going to go with the latter. Especially as, in the context
of what has already been said in this thread, we are comparing turbocharging with supercharging rather than with normal aspiration
John
|
|
|
Volvorsport
|
| posted on 16/9/08 at 05:04 PM |
|
|
crikey some back to basics needed .
thermodynamically teh turbocharger is by far the most efficient , but you cant compare badly setup turbo to a well engineered electronic clutch
supercharger .
i would supercharge the pinto to about 4-6 psi with your chosen max rpm .
as with everything its swings and roundabouts , a turbo may build exhaust back pressure before the turbine ,but you can use this stored energy as
heat to improve its efficiency .
superchargings only advantage is that boost could be apparent at idle , the others are in installation issues .
in lightweight car you dont really need lots of low down torque , and a turbo can be engineered to this ( and so can a supercharger) , so you need to
think about the whole package .
and of course your engine of choice is a volvo with a rwd gearbox , ultimately better than a pinto .
AND drag racing cars only use superchargers , because nitromethane doesnt need an intercooler to cool the charge and turbos are more of a fire hazard
.
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
|
|
|
alistairolsen
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 07:05 AM |
|
|
Ill agree anytime they are more efficient, and use some of the heat, but every forum you go onto tends to perpetuate the idea that turbos are driven
by 'free' energy, which would otherwise be wasted, and remove nothing from the crank.
That simply isnt the case, and not even close.
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 07:11 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
Ill agree anytime they are more efficient, and use some of the heat, but every forum you go onto tends to perpetuate the idea that turbos are driven
by 'free' energy, which would otherwise be wasted, and remove nothing from the crank.
Well, no one said that here, so have you decided whether to laugh or cry yet?
John
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 09:19 AM |
|
|
Hmm, now I have a dilemma. Do I go for low boost on the pinto or higher boost on a cossie engine?
No idea what I can get away with on the pinto on standard fuel...
Bearing in mind my pinto is already about 160bhp....
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
mr henderson
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 09:32 AM |
|
|
If you undertake this project, then you will also want to consider the cost/potential sale price ratio as well.
If you spend what is obviously going to be a fair bit of money on this car, then if you base the conversion on a pinto engine the car is going to be
worth quite a bit less than if you base it on a Zetec or Cosworth engine.
It may be that you have no intention of selling, but things change and it may be that you decide to do a whole new car and need to sell the existing
one.
I think you would find it easier to buy a Zetec rather than a Cosworth, and the Zetec would be just as usable
John
|
|
|
MikeR
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 12:01 PM |
|
|
your 160bhp pinto - do you have uprated cams?
if you do, you could be in trouble, turbo (and i assume super charged) don't like any overlap on the cam.
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 12:04 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
your 160bhp pinto - do you have uprated cams?
if you do, you could be in trouble, turbo (and i assume super charged) don't like any overlap on the cam.
Yes I do, FR33, which is too much for a supercharger.
Anything can be made to work though
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 12:22 PM |
|
|
Seriously thinking of just going low boost (4-5psi) on the pinto as it is, and seeing what I get out of it.
Next thing, where to get megasquirt from?
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
bimbleuk
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 01:07 PM |
|
|
Do all Pintos have iron heads? As that can severley restrict your boost when using forced induction. I've seen a Rotrex installed on one and it
was a constant battle against detonation.
I've proven you can get up to 260BHP quite easily (apart from the bracketry, intercooling, plumbing, wiring etc) on a stock internal Toyota 4AGE
20V with a bar of boost but don't expect the cast pistons to last forever though. No signs of detonation when mapped or on the pistons when I
took them out recently.
So many modern engines are suitable for forced induction at modest boost levels. I've said this before but its not just a case of bolting on a
turbo/supercharger as i've spent just as much time developing the cooling, oiling, inlet,. gearbox, transmission, brakes etc as a result of the
increased power outputs.
I'm not particularly favouring either turbo or SC but in my case my chassis/engine config would make installing a turbo quite trickey.
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 03:16 PM |
|
|
The pinto is cast iron head yes, all are. Why would this cause more problems? Retained heat i presume?
I would be looking at running probably 5psi on a stock pinto.
I am well aware that it requires more than bolting on a charger. I like a challenge.
At the moment the options are:
Stock pinto with ~5psi: cheap option, can keep current exhaust etc.
Cossie turbo engine with a lot of boost: engine is expensive, but very tuneable for silly power.
2.3 Duratec with ~14psi: engines fairly priced, new exhaust, bonnet, bellhousing is expensive. One of the tuning companies is doing it already and
getting 330bhp!
The pinto is the cheap option, looks like duratec is next, then cossie.
The duratec is a dream engine for me, lots of torque, as I am bit of a lazy driver sometimes!
What I dont want to end up with is a mentally powered car which is undriveable. I really want to do this for the challenge and to proove to myself i
can do it.
I like the idea of giving it a try on the pinto, just because its a bit different.
All suggestions welcomed though. And especially feedback from those who have done it already!
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 03:47 PM |
|
|
Worth a look despite not being the same supercharger you are planning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WigigiQXdcs
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 04:01 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by iank
Worth a look despite not being the same supercharger you are planning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WigigiQXdcs
Interesting, thanks for that!
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
carpmart
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 07:07 PM |
|
|
I have turbo charged my pinto engine and I am happy to discuss any and all aspects with you relating to forced induction and the pinto engine as I
have been through this loop!
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack 
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 08:06 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
I have turbo charged my pinto engine and I am happy to discuss any and all aspects with you relating to forced induction and the pinto engine as I
have been through this loop!
Excellent thanks for that.
First step is convert it all to fuel injection. Then start faffing about with the SC. Megasquirt here I come.... Scary stuff!
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
carpmart
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 08:26 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
I have turbo charged my pinto engine and I am happy to discuss any and all aspects with you relating to forced induction and the pinto engine as I
have been through this loop!
Excellent thanks for that.
First step is convert it all to fuel injection. Then start faffing about with the SC. Megasquirt here I come.... Scary stuff!
Why convert to fuel injection?
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 08:30 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
Why convert to fuel injection?
It all just adds to the fun!
But seriously, I would like to find out a bit more about how EFI works. Went through it with carbs, and now moving on.
I do love the webers though, they just look and sound fantastic!
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
carpmart
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 08:39 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
Why convert to fuel injection?
It all just adds to the fun!
But seriously, I would like to find out a bit more about how EFI works. Went through it with carbs, and now moving on.
I do love the webers though, they just look and sound fantastic!
David
I run twin 45 Dellorto's with a rising rate fuel regulator that increases the fuel to the carbs as the boost rises. Its pretty effective
although I run it on the rich side as I run with up to 12 psi (normally only 7 psi). Forced induction through carbs sounds bloody fantastic!
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 08:49 PM |
|
|
Are you running that boost on a std engine or have you lowered the CR?
Presume your carbs are upstream of the Turbo?
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
matt.c
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 09:12 PM |
|
|
My neighbours are going to love you coming up my road with a SC!
|
|
|
flak monkey
|
| posted on 17/9/08 at 09:18 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by matt.c
My neighbours are going to love you coming up my road with a SC!
Ahhh they love me anyway
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
|
|
|
