Sam_68
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 12:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jtskips
In all our trades only 10% deal in the eu so no big deal there...
Where do you get that figure from? It's nonsense.
Roughly half our trade (about 45% of exports and 54% of imports) is with the EU.
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 05:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jtskips
In all our trades only 10% deal in the eu so no big deal there, yet all of us have have to abide by their rules ,
What EU rules do you have to abide by that you don't like? Everyone talks about businesses being smothered by red tape, but then no one seems
able to name a regulation they don't like.
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jtskips
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 06:06 PM |
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Where do you get that figure from? It's nonsense.
Roughly half our trade (about 45% of exports and 54% of imports) is with the EU.
sorry , i was hoping it was that but in fact it says export to the eu only account for 10% of our economy ,
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 06:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jtskips
sorry , i was hoping it was that but in fact it says export to the eu only account for 10% of our economy ,
'It says'? What is 'it'? Are we talking about the little purple pixie that lives in your toilet, or Nigel
Farage's election manifesto?
Either way, they're talking sh1te (though I'd take the pixie's word over Nigel's if I were you): more than 10% of our exports
are to Germany alone, never mind the rest of the EU.
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02GF74
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 06:41 PM |
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I dont care if the cucumbers cannot have a radius of more 10 degrees or that the dolly birds serving in gastro pubs are from poland or latvia but what
i want answers to is will i be better or worse off financially?
It may sound selfish but im hoping to give up work in the next 10 or less years, possibly emigrate to cyprus, so dont want my property or saving
going down the pan.
I qilk be voting for wgichever ootuon us better dir me but really dont know which one itll be.
[Edited on 4/5/16 by 02GF74]
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BenB
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 06:53 PM |
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For most people this argument comes down to
1) is the grass greener on the other side
2) are you scared of change
add in some vaguely veiled xenophobia and we're ready to vote 
I live in London so I very much doubt the culture could be more heterogeneous. And seeing as I don't like change..... I'm in..... Trouble
is this isn't based upon logical fact on the principle that the people that shout the loudest are the people who are most biased so to get an
unbiased view you have to listen to the person saying nothing. Which doesn't exactly help.
So basically the entire population of the UK gets their patella reflex (knee jerk reaction) tested.
Great basis on which to make an important decision.....
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 06:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
I dont care if the cucumbers cannot have a radius of more 10 degrees or that the dolly birds serving in gastro pubs are from poland or latvia but what
i want answers to is will i be better or worse off financially?
Given that all the fancy numbers prove that a large proportion of our trade is with the EU, and it's logical to assume that our trading terms
with the rest of Europe will be much worse if we leave, and that the UK economy will therefore be up a certain creek without a paddle, the answer to
that one is fairly simple, surely? 
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 07:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
I dont care if the cucumbers cannot have a radius of more 10 degrees...
That's another myth about the EU, that bent bananas (or was it straight ones?!) would be banned. They specified grades for fruit and veg so
that buyers and sellers would know what quality they were buying. Shelf grade or smoothie grade? Naturally the Daily Heil made it into a story about
meddling bureaucrats.
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02GF74
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 07:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Given that all the fancy numbers prove that a large proportion of our trade is with the EU, and it's logical to assume that our trading terms
with the rest of Europe will be much worse if we leave, and that the UK economy will therefore be up a certain creek without a paddle, the answer to
that one is fairly simple, surely?
Thats the bit i dont get. We buy from china, japan, usa and none of those aee in eu.
Cant believe germany are gonna make it harder for uk to buy audi, vws and bmws etc and other eu countries. If gernany or any other country makes it
harder for uk to trade well buy our poo from china, taiwan and india.
I just hear scaremongering but where are the numbers?
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02GF74
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 07:42 PM |
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Bendy cucumbers are not a myrh, but the rules have been relaxed.
According to European Commission Regulation No. 1277/88, if a cucumber bends more than 10 millimeters per 10 centimeters (0.4 inches per 4 inches) in
length, it cannot be categorized as "class one" and may therefore only be sold as a second-rate cucumber. But who wants to buy one of
those? Most second-rate cucumbers -- at least according to conventional wisdom -- never make it to market
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 07:54 PM |
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They would end up in salads. If we're growing so much that seconds just get thrown away, then that's another issue entirely.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 07:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Thats the bit i dont get. We buy from china, japan, usa and none of those are in eu.
We do, but nothing like as much as we buy (and more importantly sell) to Europe.
Also, when negotiating sales deals with those non-EU economies, being part of the massive economy of the EU allows us to negotiate much better
terms.
As much as I abhor his clumsiness, that's what Obama has just pointed out in no uncertain terms: if we leave the EU it will take years to
negotiate new trade deals with the USA (and China, and Japan). The end results are unlikely to be as favourable as the deals we can negotiate as part
of Europe, and in the meanwhile we'd be left trading on the relatively punitive terms of non-partners, with no trade agreements in place.
We're a wealthy economy - in terms of purchasing power, we're the 9th largest... but the EU is joint first, more than seven
times our size, vying with China for top honours and even knocking the United States into second place:
Link
Are those numbers clear enough for you?
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 08:04 PM |
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Stay or leave, it doesn't really matter as it will be just us normal folk who have to deal with the consequences (either way), some will gain
but more will loose, as is the way of things.
One thing is certain, the rich want to and will get richer and the poor just want to survive, eat and have shelter.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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SJ
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 08:15 PM |
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quote:
Given that all the fancy numbers prove that a large proportion of our trade is with the EU, and it's logical to assume that our trading terms
with the rest of Europe will be much worse if we leave, and that the UK economy will therefore be up a certain creek without a paddle, the answer to
that one is fairly simple, surely?
Getting my crystal ball out I think there are two ways this will play out.
1. We vote to stay so no change.
2. We vote to leave. Cameron will resign. Boris will become PM and as he has suggested the EU will then negotiate for us to stay, which hasn't
really happened so far. We will secure some proper opt out on free movement of people, benefits and political union and then have a second referendum
and vote to stay in.
In my view scenario 2 would be the best outcome.
I think there are too many vested interests to allow an actual Brexit as it could herald the end of the EU. By contrast some different terms for the
UK, particularly on immigration and being able to differentiate between and benefits for UK and non UK citizens [which are the main issues for most
people] will seem like small beer to the Eurocrats.
I could be wrong though.
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 08:27 PM |
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I must confess, I don't get why people are so opposed to migration. I actually couldn't care less if someone from the continent wants to
come and work in the uk. The idea that someone is going to come here to claim £60 's week jsa is ludicrous.
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SJ
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 08:36 PM |
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quote:
I must confess, I don't get why people are so opposed to migration. I actually couldn't care less if someone from the continent wants to
come and work in the uk. The idea that someone is going to come here to claim £60 's week jsa is ludicrous.
Me neither but things like the NHS, schools and housing really struggle with the extra demand when the government won't accept that if you have
mass immigration and so increase demand you might need to think about proportionately increasing supply otherwise you get overloaded services where
the market isn't in control and increasing prices [but not wages] where it is.
Not sure the public / press would stomach an honest approach on planning for the changes though.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 08:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
I must confess, I don't get why people are so opposed to migration.
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Quite. Time we realise that we all live on the same planet, with the same shared resources.
It is also the other solution to SJ's confusion about how to make a single currency work without transfer payments between states: if you
can't move the money to the people, move the people to the money.
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 09:18 PM |
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quote:
Getting my crystal ball out I think there are two ways this will play out.
1. We vote to stay so no change.
2. We vote to leave. Cameron will resign. Boris will become PM and as he has suggested the EU will then negotiate for us to stay, which hasn't
really happened so far. We will secure some proper opt out on free movement of people, benefits and political union and then have a second referendum
and vote to stay in.
In my view scenario 2 would be the best outcome.
I think there are too many vested interests to allow an actual Brexit as it could herald the end of the EU. By contrast some different terms for the
UK, particularly on immigration and being able to differentiate between and benefits for UK and non UK citizens [which are the main issues for most
people] will seem like small beer to the Eurocrats.
I could be wrong though.
I agree we'd end up with Boris as the new Fuhrer but in my mind an out vote is an out vote though - no backsies, no renegotiations.
There's the door, have a nice life. I honestly don't see us staying in otherwise - the ConservaTories would have a massive rebellion on
their hands (and may do on the event of an "in" vote anyway).
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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SteveWalker
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| posted on 4/5/16 at 09:23 PM |
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The trouble with unrestricted EU migration is that the huge disparities between job opportunities, incomes and cost of living between countries leads
to some from the "poorer" countries to come here in large numbers, many to live in shared accommodation to minimise cost, stay for some
years to build up a nest-egg and then return home. They are then taking jobs that UK citizens could take, but at wages that are too low for someone
who intends to live their whole life here. They are also exporting a large part of the money they earn.
There is also the problem of sheer numbers. We cannot have a net positive immigration figure indefinitely, there is already a lack of housing, school
places, GP surgeries, even road space. Our personal experience is that our eldest son started school in a class of 23, at a school that my wife had
attended, attached to the church that she has attended all her life, where her parents also went to church, where we were married, where our children
were baptised, yet by the time his brother reached school age, 3 years later, there were 56 applicants for only 26 places and as we are 75 yards
outside the catchment area (although the school is easier to get to than our "closest" he was not given a place - meanwhile the
playground had become full of parents speaking foreign languages and there was no longer any parking as many of the big houses opposite the school and
nearby had been converted to multiple flats.
I am not against immigration, just the unlimited nature of it. I work in engineering and we are short of engineers, so it makes perfect sense to
"import" them in the short term (despite them competing with me for jobs), but we should be funding training of more of our own engineers.
Similarly, it is a scandal that we are importing so many nurses and doctors, leaving some poorer countries short (and having paid to train them) and
leaving some of our own hopefuls unable to get on courses, when some years ago the government here cut the number of training places!
If all the EU countries were at a similar level, immigration would both be lower and would average out to pretty well a net zero, but as this is not
the case, remaining in the EU will mean continued mass immigration.
I have not yet made up my mind whether to vote in or out, but the above elephant in the room is not being addressed by the EU and is certainly a large
part of the exit side of my decision.
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02GF74
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| posted on 5/5/16 at 01:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Also, when negotiating sales deals with those non-EU economies, being part of the massive economy of the EU allows us to negotiate much better
terms.
As much as I abhor his clumsiness, that's what Obama has just pointed out in no uncertain terms: if we leave the EU it will take years to
negotiate new trade deals with the USA (and China, and Japan). The end results are unlikely to be as favourable as the deals we can negotiate as part
of Europe
Well im totally ignorant in this area but why is there a need to negotiate any deal?
If chinese oligarchs want to by rolls royces, how is any trade affected whether uk is in eu or not?
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Sam_68
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| posted on 5/5/16 at 06:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Well im totally ignorant in this area but why is there a need to negotiate any deal?
Import duties; taxation on inter-state investment, that sort of thing.
There are currently no import duties between European countries, for a start. That would end if we left Europe; everything we sell to them
would have an additional 'tax', likewise everything they sell to us.
One of the reasons that companies like Nissan and Honda have based their factories in the UK (and the foreign owners of companies like Lotus, Bentley
and Jaguar-Landrover keep them here) is because it allows them access to the whole European market without paying import duties. If we withdraw
from Europe, such companies will need to appraise how many cars they are selling on the UK home market vs. exporting to Europe, and depending on the
import/export duties and manufacturing costs may (probably will) choose to re-deploy to mainland Europe in due course.
Those members who are old enough may remember the pre-EU days when relatively mundane European cars lie Alfa GTV's and Lancia Fulvias
were regarded as rare and exotic in the UK, because they cost as much to buy as an E-type Jaguar... punitive duties on imported cars in an attempt to
protect our home manufacturing market were the main reason for that.
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SJ
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| posted on 5/5/16 at 06:35 AM |
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quote:
There are currently no import duties between European countries
Try driving back from Greece with a Transit van full of fags and see how you get on.
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 5/5/16 at 06:37 AM |
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That has nothing to do with import duty. That is about tax avoidance.
If you import fags, sell them and pay the relevant duty it is OK. Selling them on a street corner and defrauding HMRC isn't.
And that is down to the tax regime, we have lowish income tax, but that is made up by duty on other stuff. Much of europe has MUCH higher income tax,
but less duty on beer and fags. That system would be hopeless here, imagine what would happen if alcohol and fags dropped to 1/3rd current price, and
workers had to pay 50% income tax.... about right for many of our neighbours.
[Edited on 5/5/16 by cliftyhanger]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 5/5/16 at 06:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
That has nothing to do with import duty. That is about tax avoidance.
Quite. That's about our own internal taxes and duties.
If you produce a bottle of Scotch in Speyside, or a can of lager in Burton on Trent, you must pay alcohol duty on it just the same as if you import it
from Europe. Ditto tobacco products.
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SJ
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| posted on 5/5/16 at 07:23 AM |
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quote:
quote: Originally posted by cliftyhanger That has nothing to do with import duty. That is about tax avoidance. Quite. That's about our own
internal taxes and duties. If you produce a bottle of Scotch in Speyside, or a can of lager in Burton on Trent, you must pay alcohol duty on it just
the same as if you import it from Europe. Ditto tobacco products
You are right - my comment was tongue in cheek, but the 1992 single market act was all about harmonisation. Duty levels will harmonise across all
member states. It's a logical progression towards what the EU is about, which is a united states of Europe. If duty has been paid in Greece it
shouldn't have to be paid in the UK, according to the single market act. Look it up. As usual when governments realised what they had signed up
for they backtracked.
Once you have common monetary and fiscal policy you are well on the way to having a single government.
I guess the question is if we stay in we need to ask if we are we prepared to go that far because the pressure to be a full member with common
currency won't go away.
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