Toprivetguns
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 06:53 PM |
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I'm slightly worried about the voters who ticked both boxes and the other who signed the ballot paper !
Only drive as fast as your angel can fly... !
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mark chandler
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 07:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Exactly Rusty
But Sam thinks better
But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right
NOT, he's a clown,
The problem with a referendum is that it gives the nation the opportunity to have a say on something about which 90% know virtually nothing.
It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!
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gregs
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 07:15 PM |
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An analogy for you:
The population of the UK get offered a chance to all get on the first intergalactic space flight. The spacecraft is totally unknown, but the bloke who
built it (who isn't going to get onboard) says it'll be great, he's seen things fly before and its warmer where it might be going...
so half the people jump on and hit the big red button - oh and they take their families with them as well even though they thought it was a pretty
daft idea....
Now we've taken the democratic decision to leave - we're starting to see the results.
I voted Remain, but I really want to find some positives that have come out since the exit vote was passed.... in the absence of any single positive
being aired (other than we're free, it's going to be fine, we've beat the Germans again - WTF???, we've got control of our own
country - that we already had) I am still hanging on to any possibility that might exist to remain.
As previously said all the politicians are backing away from dealing with the result of the vote - this is probably a clue of quite how much poop
we're now in. So - unless there are some real positives that appear, I'll keep hanging on to any possibility of remaining even if it is
more remote than pluto.
As an aside - people please stop talking about Winning and Loosing.... there has been a democratic vote which has a result. There are no sides, we
will all win or loose together, unfortunately all the signs at the moment point at the later - I hope some positives start to emerge of the next week,
but I fear we are now heading into 2-10 years of heavy recession.
Greg
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phelpsa
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 07:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Exactly Rusty
But Sam thinks better
But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right
NOT, he's a clown,
The problem with a referendum is that it gives the nation the opportunity to have a say on something about which 90% know virtually nothing.
It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!
I wouldn't know, my vote was wrong!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 07:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!
The trick, as Phelpsa pointed out, is to only open your mouth when you're sure you know what you're talking about.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, as they say...
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 07:35 PM |
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You can't make this stuff up, the petition for a second reforendum was started by campaiger on the Brexit side who assumed is lot would
lose.
Now a 3.5 million and counting ROTF
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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balidey
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 07:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
No one I know voted out, is regretting it, in fact the opposite
Really?
Well, perhaps they're just not admitting it yet?
There was a definite mood of 'Oh, f***, what have we done?!' in rural Lincolnshire. 
Though given that I was among an agricultural economy that relies almost totally on eastern European transient labour, that's possibly not
surprising. More surprising that they voted so overwhelmingly 'out' in the first place, when to leave would be so obviously cutting their
own throats. Boston (Lincs) will be a ghost town, and the crops will be rotting in the fields and glasshouses if all the Poles go home... so you can
expect a big hike in food prices, too, if they have to pay enough to attract lazy English people to do the job on UK produce and a 4% import tarriff
on EU produce.
You and I must live in a very different rural Lincolnshire. A massive percentage of this area voted to leave.
I know several local farmers in South Lincs and the impression seems to be that leave was what they wanted. I'm sure the phrase 'cutting
their own throats' was never mentioned. Although a high suicide rate in rural farmers is accurate, I don't think any of them would do the
'long game' with a 5 year protracted financial suicide when a shot gun usually works. Some would say often forced on them by EU quotas and
regulations.
And I also know several people who work or have worked in the local food processing companies and haulage firms in this area. Transient European
labour is a myth these days. About 15 to 20 years ago there was a marked change from transient migration in the Fenland regions to a permanent
settlement of mainly Eastern Europeans. This is not rhetoric or hear say, its fact. The population in rural Lincolnshire and into Cambridgeshire has
shifted and the work force that used to be a core of UK labourers with migrant workers to fill the numbers no longer exists. Now that may sound like a
long winded way of saying 'bloody foreigners coming over 'ere and taking our jobs' but that is actually what is happening. People I
know have been and are being forced out of work by EU migrants in massive numbers. Not small numbers of transient labour like it used to.
But just to add some balance, where I work (in engineering, not farming) we have a large number, about 75% of migrant workers. This has shifted from
about the 10 to 15% it used to be. We get our staff from labour agencies. The migrant workers come from many different countries, some outside of the
EU, but the large majority are Eastern Europeans. I often hear third hand anecdotes about how hard working they are and that they are only doing the
jobs because the 'Lazy English' don't want the jobs. I can say for certain that in my company, over the past 20+ years with circa
200 employees, that statement is total horse shit. The people that wanted to work overtime were the English. The Poles, Lithuanians, etc work. But not
harder or longer than anyone else. They do like to work to the clock. End of day, down tools. No more. Why bother, we have worked enough. We have also
seen lots of fighting and arguing at work amongst migrant workers, mainly because some groups from certain countries refuse to work along other
workers from different countries. The migrant workers have been some of the most racist and hateful people I have seen.
Again, the flip side to that is, some are amongst the nicest people I have met.
That is just my personal experience in rural Lincolnshire and may show why there is a massive leaning towards the Leave vote in this part of the
country.
Finally, the engineering work I do is greatly influenced by EU regs. That is the main reason I voted to leave and I think its a brilliant opportunity
for our engineering and manufacturing businesses to build on this and start making what we want, how we want and selling it abroad and making money.
Enough of this doom and gloom nutsack that I am hearing.
Dutch bears have terrible skin due to their clogged paws
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Sam_68
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 08:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by balidey
You and I must live in a very different rural Lincolnshire. A massive percentage of this area voted to leave.
I don't live there, I was visiting.
And yes, I'm aware that a massive percentage voted to leave - that was my point.
Also, I agree and am aware of the shift toward permanent residence amongst the Eastern European population - though that's mainly because
they've proved so cheap and useful that they've found it possible to stay in employment in unskilled jobs all year round.
But having spent Friday and Saturday talking - for reasons I won't bore you with - to lots of Lincolnshire people who almost without
exception said that they had voted out, the very clear impression I got was that the news reports of early developments following announcement of the
results had left them severely shaken and doubting their previous judgement.
Even at the celebration parties (of which I attended a couple) the tone was: 'well, we've 'won', so we'd better
celebrate the victory, no matter how Pyrrhic. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.'
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gregs
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 08:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by balidey
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Finally, the engineering work I do is greatly influenced by EU regs. That is the main reason I voted to leave and I think its a brilliant opportunity
for our engineering and manufacturing businesses to build on this and start making what we want, how we want and selling it abroad and making
money.
As long as you only want to sell in the UK that will be fine... but in perspective its a pretty small market - if you want to sell to anybody in
Europe you'll still be working to the same req's but possibly with some import duties to make it sweeter.
[Edited on 26/6/16 by gregs]
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mark chandler
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 08:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
It must be wonderful being part the 10% that are always right!
The trick, as Phelpsa pointed out, is to only open your mouth when you're sure you know what you're talking about.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, as they say...
They also say there is a clown in every circus 
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Sam_68
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 08:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
They also say there is a clown in every circus
They're wrong: there's always more than one clown.
Only one ringmaster, though. 
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twybrow
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| posted on 26/6/16 at 09:17 PM |
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What a mess this is. I cannot see a second referendum happening, but I can see the fallout from the last one costing our country big style. I suspect
a lot of leave voters will regret their vote, but it is too late. I am sure this will now happen, but god only knows who will take the helm on our
rudderless runaway sinking ship!
The next thing to go will be the Union. Scotland are itching to pull the trigger, and that would spell the fragmentation of UK. Sad times. No longer
will we and our children be able to move and work freely in Europe. No more will we have the massive financial and resource thrown at science and
R&D that the EU gives. No more a major player on a world stage. I truly hope some of the fairytales that Leave used come true. The first major two
(immigration and NHS funding) have already been thrown out and it has only been a few days, and the leaders of the Leave campaign have all gone to
ground (apart from the slimeball Farage). Good luck to anyone living in a deprived region - you have a Tory government ruling you, and you just cut
off a major funding stream for regeneration (see Wales. Cornwall, north east etc for countless examples).
Try this petition instead
[Edited on 26/6/16 by twybrow]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 08:47 AM |
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The only thing 99 percent agree is Farage is a creep but over half the votes cast were on his side of the argument. The rest of them aren't much
better, Fox resigned under a cloud, and so on.
The people on the remain side were all serious heavy weight politicians.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 01:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Nobody on this thread - on either side - is suggesting that we should disregard the democratic result.
I'd just like to point you to the very first post in the thread; someone encouraging people to petition for another referendum. How is that not
wanting to disregard the democratic result?
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt, as they say...
Indeed.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 01:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I'd just like to point you to the very first post in the thread; someone encouraging people to petition for another referendum. How is that not
wanting to disregard the democratic result?
Clearly, we have very different perspectives, because I'd ask exactly the opposite question: how is seeking a second national referendum
disregarding the democratic decision made by the first?
It is seeking the electorate's democratic authority to over-rule the earlier decision with the benefit of later experience (and a sharp
lesson in common sense), but certainly not ignoring it.
In fact, the legal situation is that the referendum is entirely advisory, and MP's will now have to vote to leave the EU.
A failure to do that would be disregarding the democratic result.
Although it would entirely substantiate what I said earlier about our 'Parliamentary Democracy' being a euphemism for a much less
democratic form of Government, I would be horrified - and very angry indeed, despite personally being anti-Brexit - if our elected MP's chose to
over-rule a general referendum in such a way, but it's a perfectly legal possibility if Boris' frantic back-pedalling and attempts to
negotiate a deal on free trade without free borders (which has never been achieved before) come to nought.
There is also the possibility of a veto by the Scottish Parliament. The legality of that seems more questionable, but to deny it would seem likely to
lead to the dissolution of the union.
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 02:35 PM |
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There can be no Brexit without a general election first. There is a mandate to leave the EU, but no agreement on how to implement it. The desires of
the leave camp are literally delusional. They want free trade, no payments, no EU rules, no free movement (but we can still retire to Spain, of
course). Absolutely impossible. The parties need to set out in their manifestos how they would proceed, and then put it to the vote. There's
every chance too that Labour or the Libs could seek a mandate to ignore the Brexit vote.
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Jeano
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 02:43 PM |
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As a person that voted Remain.
I think the idea of a second referendum is undiplomatic and should not be considered unless in itself it got more that 50% of the population on the
UK.
The damage is done now. The unknown is the biggest fear, they need to concentrate on the exit plan now.
Location: Essex
Drives: MK Indy F20c with hairdryer
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Sam_68
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 03:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
There can be no Brexit without a general election first. There is a mandate to leave the EU, but no agreement on how to implement it.
Legally, there can. And there doesn't need to be an agreement on how to implement it:
There is nothing stopping the current Government making the Article 50 notification right now, and 2 years after that is lodged (unless all other EU
members agree to an extension of negotiations) we're out on our arses, with or without any negotiated agreement on implementation: we simply
cease to be a member, and all treaties cease to apply. There are doubtless factions in the EU who would love to see that happen, as it would be the
best possible deterrent to further fragmentation of the Union.
If it happened, it would make the current chaos look mild in comparison: we'd have approximately the same status and credibility in terms of
world trade as North Korea.
This is the reason that Boris is backpedaling so fast that his feet are a blur, and trying to convince everybody that there is 'no rush'
to lodge the Article 50.
Unfortunately Germany seems to be ruling out any informal negotiations prior to the Article
50 notification, so Boris' bluff may just have been called...
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minibull
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 04:11 PM |
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If those older voters are ignorant uneducated little Englanders then the EU obviously isn't worth being in, as these are the same people who
voted in in 1975 (including me). As to the leave campaign being unprepared of course they are. There was no provision (allocated civil servants,
budget, etc) to work on prior to the leave vote. So in order to work out the best of the alternate policies will require time, as will appointing
negotiating teams. We are told young people voted in, but in areas such as East Lancs the young are mostly anti EU as it hasn't given them any
hope of prosperity. Of my own children two have degrees, well paid jobs and have relocated to large urban areas, they voted in. My third child who is
in no way less intelligent has a daughter lives locally, voted out. Life experience dictated how people voted and membership of the EU has not shared
any improvements to that evenly throughout the country. Leaving is a chance to improve this country, but not a guarantee that is up to our governments
and what they do with the opportunity. At least it will be slightly easier to hold them accountable. One last point it is also being pointed out that
the older Brexiters are selfish, thinking only of themselves. These are the people who believe that they have a duty and responsibility to look after
their parents in old age, unlike the caring youngsters who seem to believe that they should sub contract their elders care to which ever migrants come
cheapest, because their own lives are to important. Brexit won, the sun still came up, life goes on.
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CRAIGR
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 04:21 PM |
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I openly admit that I "sat on the fence" so to speak and didn't vote mainly because I felt I personally did not know enough about
the subject and the consequences of voting one way or another.
After watching many of the debates that all tended to end in personal point scoring from both sides I felt no wiser.
I still feel the same in the absence of cold hard facts as to what will or will not happen. Does anybody really know in the mid to long term.
If we were to reapply in the future why would we not be taken back albeit on the member states terms ?
If others leave what happens then ?
If our political system worked for the good of the country instead of against each other in an attempt to feather their own nests and actually told
the truth assumedly we would all be in a better place.
Have to say there's a lot of passion for this cold, grey rain soaked piece of rock.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 04:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
The desires of the leave camp are literally delusional. They want free trade, no payments, no EU rules,
The older people who voted OUT, are the ones who were sold the IN 40 years ago, based on those items above.
They didn't vote to join back in the seventies, and get all the EEC/EC/EU garbage that has gradually been forced on the nation.
It started as the EEC, then somehow became the EC, then EU. I didn't see any referendums about those changes?
Read the Treaty of Rome. Our VAT has still to go up to the 22.5% that was agreed in that treaty.
In a few years time, when all the hysterics and doom sayers have died down, noone will even think twice that UK was once in such a deceitful insidious
club.
How many have noticed people refer to the 'Supreme Court' on news interviews? I didn't know one existed. I thought the Law Lords
were the top, until it was pointed out to me that the EUROPEAN Supreme Court has ultimate say.
So, who was controlling the UK when we were IN?
All this claptrap about another referendum just because some people didn't like the result. But, we don't hear people demanding another
election when they get MP's they don't like!
Join the real world people, it's done! Get on with life and make the best of it.
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 27/6/16 by Neville Jones]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 05:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CRAIGR
If we were to reapply in the future why would we not be taken back albeit on the member states terms ?
Short answer: because according to the Maastricht Treaty, our new membership would have to be approved by ALL other members before it could go
forward.
Naturally, they're going to be reluctant to let us back in and put every possible hurdle in our way because of the way we've behaved
previously.
Not saying it's impossible, but in practice I think we have to accept that as soon as we start the formal process, that's it,
permanently.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 05:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
I'd just like to point you to the very first post in the thread; someone encouraging people to petition for another referendum. How is that not
wanting to disregard the democratic result?
Clearly, we have very different perspectives, because I'd ask exactly the opposite question: how is seeking a second national referendum
disregarding the democratic decision made by the first?
Because it makes a complete mockery of the democratic process. Voters have now been exposed to three days of almost exclusively negative media
coverage, promoting doom and gloom. How would a second vote be even remotely democratic? If a second vote didn't give the result you want,
would you be asking for a third and a fourth?
[Edited on 27/6/16 by MikeRJ]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 27/6/16 at 06:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Because it makes a complete mockery of the democratic process.
More of a mockery that our esteemed political masters make of it, with their lies, bickering and self-promotion, would you say?
I'm not sure that's possible...
But point taken: I wouldn't support the idea of a second referendum myself, though there is perhaps some justification on the grounds
that it has become clear that a large percentage of the electorate had not anticipated some of the very serious issues that have emerged along with
the result.
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02GF74
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| posted on 29/6/16 at 07:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day
Put simply, it was a normal day in which the pound lost more value that it ever had before (at least since leaving the gold standard - twice as much
as Black Wednesday), and hundreds of £billions were wiped off the value of UK companies.
It was a normal day just like the one that started the Great Depression in 1930's America, in other words.
.
Well the ftse is almost back to where it was on thursday so we are not totally f**ked.... or maybe just too early to say.....
[Edited on 29/6/16 by 02GF74]
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