quote:Originally posted by SJ
...if we stay in we need to ask if we are we prepared to go that far...
Except that we don't, because among the 'concessions' recently negotiated were the confirmations:
"Measures, the purpose of which is to further deepen the economic and monetary union, will be voluntary for member states whose currency is not
the euro."
and
"Mutual respect between member states participating or not in the operation of the euro area will be ensured."
I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future.
They may well be: and what's wrong with that? There may come a time when the UK populace and Government decide that it's actually in their
best interest to participate in closer monetary union.
But they can only be changed if we agree to it: the current arrangement will be legally binding upon the EU.
I think you are being paranoid if you believe otherwise: the concessions are cast in law, not tinfoil-hat speculation.
quote:
I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future. They may well be: and what's wrong with that?
There may come a time when the UK populace and Government decide that it's actually in their best interest to participate in closer monetary
union. But they can only be changed if we agree to it: the current arrangement will be legally binding upon the EU. I think you are being paranoid if
you believe tinfoil-hat speculation.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it and there is nothing 'tin foil hat' about it whatever that means. What I have
suggested is a logical progression of measures taken so far.
It is up to individuals to decide what they want. Lots of people use the 'I never voted for that' answer when looking back at the original
EEC referendum when comparing it with where we are now.
I just think people should be fully aware of the objectives of the EU project. One of the problems with the referendum is lack of knowledge and
standing back and looking at the big picture is helpful.
I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but going in that direction is what
we are voting for if we vote to stay in.
quote:Originally posted by SJ
I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but going in that direction is
what we are voting for if we vote to stay in.
No it's not.
We are voting to remain in the Union in its current, legally agreed form.
Any future changes in either direction (and there is nothing stopping us negotiating further 'concessions' if we wish to further
distance ourselves from certain policies), are a separate matter.
quote:
quote: Originally posted by SJ I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but
going in that direction is what we are voting for if we vote to stay in. No it's not. We are voting to remain in the Union in its current,
legally agreed form. Any future changes in either direction (and there is nothing stopping us negotiating further 'concessions' if we wish
to further distance ourselves from certain policies), are a separate matter.
quote:Originally posted by SJ
Experience suggests that you might be wrong..
What experience?
We have previously chosen not to join the Euro and, guess what, we're not a part of it.
This is the tinfoil-hat attitude: if you can point out the specific instances where the UK Government (which has a right of veto, let's
not forget) was forced (not accepted by negotiation) to accept EU moves toward closer monetary union, then please do so.
I'm broadly in favour of voting remain, but think everyone if polled should say they are backing the out campaign, that way the goverment can
bribe us (as they did with the Scots). That way I could buy my cigarettes and alcohol from the cheapest places in the EU and have them delivered as my
friends in Europe do. The big problem I have with the EU isn't unwarranted interference by unelected officials, but our elected government
constants commitment to deny the benefits of membership at an individual level. If it's 'good for business' they accept any EU move.
Should it be good for you and I they don't. As to immigration we've let more non EU citizens in anyway, were the only country to allow
migrants in from new accession countries from day one so I can't see leaving would result in a sea change there. On the positives for leaving
though, it would stop our Government from hiding behind their oft used and frequently often incorrect excuse ' we can't help it it's
the EU's fault'. One thing I can't understand in the campaign at present is the will we, won't we be able to make trade deals,
if we make/provide something others need they will deal with us regardless of deals as it is in their interest to. If we haven't anything they
want a trade deal won't encourage trade !
I'm for voting out and will do so, it doesn't matter how many times anybody posts the same old guff about the benefits of staying in, I
didn't want to join in the first place, and I wasn't old enough to vote at the time.
It makes me laugh that some people keep posting " there facts" in a vain hope of changing some one else's mind, it won't! This
is politics my friends, YOU will never know the real truth about what will happen if we leave until it happens.
That's our own PM, and two out of the three most important non-EU nations that have warned of adverse consequences.
It's a pity that some people are just so blind reactionary that they'll never even think about allowing common sense to prevail.
I hope you'll still be feeling proud of yourself when Nissan, Honda and JLR pull out of the UK and you have to look the people who relied on
them for their living in the face.
The other reason for voting to remain is if you want big reforms in the benefit system and NHS. Many other EU countries have contributory based
systems which work better with open borders. Ours really struggle with open borders. I'm convinced one of the reasons Cameron wants to remain is
that he thinks it is a way to reform both of the above in the UK without him getting the blame.
I don't like all the scaremongering that's been going on
also Obama sticking his nose in when he's only interetsted in his gains of us staying in. also microsoft, it's all about the big companys
that are worried, they don't care about the little man!
Anyone else also notice how the bbc seems to be very pro stay, where's the news about the syrian refgees have they all vanished!
Wasn't there a riot at calias recently but it wasn't show on the bbc?
but sadly even if we all vote to leave the vote will be rigged
That's our own PM, and two out of the three most important non-EU nations that have warned of adverse consequences.
It's a pity that some people are just so blind reactionary that they'll never even think about allowing common sense to prevail.
I hope you'll still be feeling proud of yourself when Nissan, Honda and JLR pull out of the UK and you have to look the people who relied on
them for their living in the face.
Your right this is about economics not politics. So why then does it matter what Obama or the Jap PM says. They are concerned about stability of the
world economy and their own economies. I couldn't give a hoot what any politician says on the subject. I'd rather hear from businessmen
and make my choice on what they say. Who is the most powerful businessman in the UK and what do he and his ilk have to say?
Have Nissan, Honda and JLR said they will pull out of the UK then if we leave the EU??????????
Just spent some time googling to top 20 businessmen and women in the UK and their thoughts on BREXIT. Turns out they can't agree. What hope
has the common man got of making the correct decision if these people can't agree.
Photo Archive
Building: It is an ex-Locost - it has gone to the IOW!
posted on 24/5/16 at 12:29 PM
I'm still unsure... but the biased reporting is starting to wind me up. I found this on YouTube - it's extremely one-sided (pro-exit) but
aspects of what they report are quite shocking...
Note: it's an hour long, and some bits in the middle are exceptionally stupid and amateurish (the play-acting) but other parts are ...
interesting.
Don't take it as "The Truth", nor should you think that this is my opinion, but it's the most detailed presentation I've
seen so far.
I don't agree it is about economics. The first decision should a political one i.e do we want to be part of a larger country called the EU or
not. Politically there are positives and negatives to staying or leaving, but either way the economics will sort themselves out in the medium to long
term as long as we are a productive nation.
Photo Archive
Building: BMW 2.8 Viento, On the Road, 1949 MG TC in bits
posted on 24/5/16 at 09:23 PM
I'm no fan of the scaremongering and extreme spin that both sides are using at the moment, but I can see that many in the out campaign seem to
be basing their decision on a point of principle about controlling our own destiny.
What I would really like someone to explain to me however is why so many business leaders and institutions want us to stay in if its really as bad for
us as the out campaign would have us believe. What's in it for them? I have a hard time believing that they can all be David Icke style alien
lizards bent on world domination.
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial
services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'
There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.
The other key point to this referendum to me personally is immigration; we are having to turn away and even deport highly skilled non EU citizens due
to them not earning 35k+ per year to meet immigration targets whereas the flow of unskilled labour is unchecked as our hands are tied.
This only serves to drive down wages and help big business keep their costs down, hence the of large multinationals putting forward their cases to
remain, even threatening to pull out of the UK if we choose to leave.
Again this argument is flawed when you look at the investment of the likes of Honda and Nissan where between them have invested over 300 million
pounds in the last year even though they new a referendum on the EU and a possible exit was on the cards.
quote:Originally posted by Irony
Your right this is about economics not politics. So why then does it matter what Obama or the Jap PM says. They are concerned about stability of the
world economy and their own economies... Who is the most powerful businessman in the UK and what do he and his ilk have to say?
Unless you failed to notice, we've just pulled through a global recession.
We operate in a global economy, of which Europe is one of the joint largest players, alongside China and the US. The UK on its own is an
also-ran.
Pretty much every big business player in the UK is saying the same thing: if we withdraw from Europe, it will hurt us. Badly.
And I have just heard on the radio that the leave campaign is (surprise surprise) going to concentrate on immigration as its main point as other
arguments don't seem to be making progress.
The politics of fear, hatred and blame really are rather low.
Must say the stay campaign is also based on fear, but is swerving hatred and blame.
I still want EU reform and to stay. But I am convinced it is either/or and we won't get both.
Best result will be if we vote to leave, and the EU does a mega deal/shakeup and changes enough that we have to re-vote. Pigs might fly.
However, with the growing surge in far right politics across the EU, the next few years could get exciting. But I doubt in a good way. I like politics
to be almost un-noticed, just smoothly moving along. But just like a nasty boil, pressure is growing and at some point it will need lancing. Messy for
a while, but will quicly heal. However, I am non too keen on us being the ones left with the mess to clear up.
Photo Archive
Building: BMW 2.8 Viento, On the Road, 1949 MG TC in bits
posted on 25/5/16 at 07:39 AM
quote:Originally posted by james-w
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial
services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'
There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.
That's my point. If it is really a big red herring, why are so many of those business apparently so keen on us staying in and why are so many
financial institutions saying that we will take a hit?
I don't understand why they are all so keen on telling us that everything will go t*$s up if we leave, yet I also know that they are
deliberately using worst case scenario's in their analysis to make their point. What's in it for them that the rest of us shouldn't
like, because if its profits and jobs, we should all be worried as well.
I'm a relatively well informed punter, I'm working on a collaborative project that's funded by the EU, and I'm currently
wavering one way and then the other. With all the spin and counter spin, I have no idea how your average Joe couch potato is supposed to make an
informed decision.
What I don't like about the EU:
I) stupid regulations that don't work for us that we have to live with
ii) lack of control of our borders
iii) drive towards federalism
iv) Accession of countries that really shouldn't be joining
What I like:
I) Good regulation (much of the environmental legislation, workers rights etc)
ii) Being inside of a larger trading block (which is what the EEC started out as being)
iii) EU investment into deprived areas of our country that successive UK governments would have ignored even if they had been saving the EU membership
fees
iv) Freedom of movement in the job market
Photo Archive
Building: Hatred of Loughborough's Speed Humps
posted on 25/5/16 at 07:57 AM
quote:Originally posted by richardm6994
The government have done this referendum because if we vote to stay, then they have the justification why we've not left the EU whenever the
topic arises in the future. If we vote to leave, then the EU will probably just block the exit and the government can sit back and put on a sorry face
and say 'we tried to leave but it's not our fault we're having to stay'
At the end of the day, we'll not be leaving the EU because either the referendum will finish with a 'stay' result or alternatively
the EU and its members will simply block us from leaving by not approving (or dragging out beyond reason) the severance agreement.
Quite a bit of sense in the above, well, to me anyway.
However, the Parasitic (Sc)ameron(um) 'have done' this referendum simply because he/they were worried about the sheeple not voting them in
again. In order to placate the back benchers (and as it turns out some front-benchers too) and those voters wanting to take back control of the
country, they had to offer a referendum. Farage ate *very* heavily into the votes of the two main parties, Scameron was scared of not being
re-elected, so he put this on the table. He's hoping the Sheeple can be scared, so that his trough can be forever filled and they can all stay
on the gravy train.
I'm not from a 'political' persuasion, I'm a disenfranchised aging cynic. The whole system just reeks of corruption, UK and
EU alike. Our Elite make noises to placate us, while they fill their boots with disregard. Hell, Bliar was looked at a 'Socialist' by the
sheeple, while he waged war, invaded sovereign countries, created the PFI legacy, opened our borders and satisfied his personal greed. Scameron is no
better, these are the Elite.
I'm not from a 'political' persuasion, I'm a disenfranchised aging cynic. The whole system just reeks of corruption, UK and
EU alike. Our Elite make noises to placate us, while they fill their boots with disregard. Hell, Bliar was looked at a 'Socialist' by the
sheeple, while he waged war, invaded sovereign countries, created the PFI legacy, opened our borders and satisfied his personal greed. Scameron is no
better, these are the Elite.
Hmm, looks like you have a slightly higher opinion of politicians than me.
Just that I rate cameron above Blair, Blair was/is greedy beyond comprehension, and his Mrs didn't even have the decency to wait until he was
out of office to cash in. At least Cameron is a bit more honest that he is a rich boy.
Saying that, bit like saying a gonorrhoea is better than syphilis.
quote:Originally posted by james-w
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial
services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'
There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.
That's my point. If it is really a big red herring, why are so many of those business apparently so keen on us staying in and why are so many
financial institutions saying that we will take a hit?
I don't understand why they are all so keen on telling us that everything will go t*$s up if we leave, yet I also know that they are
deliberately using worst case scenario's in their analysis to make their point. What's in it for them that the rest of us shouldn't
like, because if its profits and jobs, we should all be worried as well.
I'm a relatively well informed punter, I'm working on a collaborative project that's funded by the EU, and I'm currently
wavering one way and then the other. With all the spin and counter spin, I have no idea how your average Joe couch potato is supposed to make an
informed decision.
What I don't like about the EU:
I) stupid regulations that don't work for us that we have to live with
ii) lack of control of our borders
iii) drive towards federalism
iv) Accession of countries that really shouldn't be joining
What I like:
I) Good regulation (much of the environmental legislation, workers rights etc)
ii) Being inside of a larger trading block (which is what the EEC started out as being)
iii) EU investment into deprived areas of our country that successive UK governments would have ignored even if they had been saving the EU membership
fees
iv) Freedom of movement in the job market
I do believe there will be a minor economic impact in the short term as we break free, it would be unrealistic to think otherwise but not to the scale
all of the 'Independent' (EU funded) organisations claim.
Longer term however I think the UK economy will be able to grow beyond where it is currently once it is free of the EU restrictions on trade where all
28 member states have to agree. There are issues currently with the Canada-EU trade deal as Canada is unwilling to give visa free travel to Romanians
which are now threatening a veto.
It is a price I am will to pay when looking at the bigger picture and my children's future prosperity.
