Sam_68
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| posted on 28/5/16 at 07:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by james-w
This so called democracy does not work for the UK and history shows this, we have been on the receiving end of more lost votes in the parliament than
any other member state yet we are the third biggest in seats behind Germany and France.
Perhaps that's because we have been the least engaged of all the EU members?
Perhaps it's time we get with the programme and start working with the EU, instead of trying to continually rail against it?
With regard to legislation, let me ask you which system you think is preferable:
a) The EU system, where the legislative programme and the form of individual ligislation to be considered by the European Parliament is decided
upon by a commission made up of members appointed by the democratically elected governments of member states, and from proposals put forward primarily
by the elected European Parliament (or secondarily by other key democratic of financial bodies), or;
b) The UK system for Private Members Bills, where the legislation to be discussed is proposed on the basis of a single individual's pet
hobby-horse and selected literally by the lottery of drawing the proposer's name out of a goldfish bowl. I kid you not!.
Before criticising European Democracy, perhaps you should take a closer look at our own...
[Edited on 28/5/16 by Sam_68]
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SJ
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| posted on 28/5/16 at 02:07 PM |
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quote:
Before criticising European Democracy, perhaps you should take a closer look at our own...
Both are dire - that the House of Lords still exists amazes me!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 28/5/16 at 02:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:
Both are dire - that the House of Lords still exists amazes me!
I certainly wouldn't disagree with that: the best we have today - anywhere - is a clumsy pastiche of true democracy. The closest we got
to that was in ancient Greece, where the debate and vote on each and every individual issue was open to everyone (so long as you were male,
free, and of sufficient age and status, anyway!).
Logistics prevented this as societies grew in scale. We do now have the technology to return to it, but we apparently lack the will. 
In the meanwhile, the best we can do is accept that there will be certain limitations with any democratic system, and concentrate on a society
that will generate the best economy, and thereby the best chance of improving the underlying political system in the future.
The answer still remains in Europe, for the present: it's the forward-looking option, whereas the 'out' campaign is reactionary to
its core.
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woodster
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| posted on 29/5/16 at 10:59 PM |
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I'm voting out despite the in campaign telling me there's a good chance my knob will drop off if I vote to leave the eu 
[Edited on 29/5/16 by woodster]
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mark chandler
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 07:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:
Both are dire - that the House of Lords still exists amazes me!
I certainly wouldn't disagree with that: the best we have today - anywhere - is a clumsy pastiche of true democracy. The closest we got
to that was in ancient Greece, where the debate and vote on each and every individual issue was open to everyone (so long as you were male,
free, and of sufficient age and status, anyway!).
Logistics prevented this as societies grew in scale. We do now have the technology to return to it, but we apparently lack the will.
In the meanwhile, the best we can do is accept that there will be certain limitations with any democratic system, and concentrate on a society
that will generate the best economy, and thereby the best chance of improving the underlying political system in the future.
The answer still remains in Europe, for the present: it's the forward-looking option, whereas the 'out' campaign is reactionary to
its core.
Everyone voting for everything? Madness, even if you do not like politicians you need paid people who are enthusiastic about what they do or you
would end up with the fringes running the country when they feel like it, that concept is doomed.
Personally I like first past the post, you get clear majorities which drives change, by forcing general elections everyone gets a chance to vote
anyway.
House of Lords, it looks pretty rubbish on the outside but.... You have some very very clever people in their who provide a check and balance on the
voted parliament who's guidance would be badly missed.
Back on subject, everyone in the country of voting age gets a shout at the EU question, I,m still out. They keep complaining about the £350 million a
week going out as being incorrect, the money that comes back is tainted as it is being spent on us no-longer controlled by us so dismiss that
argument, who gets to decide where it is spent?
If coming out suppresses house prices good, at least my daughter may be able to buy something and get out of shared ownership, last time I looked
England was still in the same place on a map.
You just have to look at the recent French strikes to see what's going wrong elsewhere.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 07:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Everyone voting for everything? Madness, even if you do not like politicians you need paid people who are enthusiastic about what they do or you
would end up with the fringes running the country when they feel like it, that concept is doomed.
Personally I like first past the post, you get clear majorities which drives change, by forcing general elections everyone gets a chance to vote
anyway.
You're assuming party politics, and therefore that you have someone, or some party or group, running things. In a true democracy, you have a
civil service to implement decisions, but following the will of the electorate - each and every one of them, equally.
Whether you approve of it or not, any party political system is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy. Different thing entirely. 
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
If coming out suppresses house prices good, at least my daughter may be able to buy something and get out of shared ownership, last time I looked
England was still in the same place on a map.
Some eejit on another forum rubbished the house price thing because he couldn't understand - if the demand was still there, and the developers
were saying they would scale back construction in the event of Brexit - how the law of supply and demand would allow house prices to fall.
For the answer, you only need to look back to 2008. It's amazing how short people's memories are, isn't it?
You understand the concept of a recession, presumably?
The reason that it is predicted that house prices will be suppressed is because we'll enter a recession, so nobody will have the money,
or the confidence in their employment, or the ability to borrow money, to be able to buy.
Lower house prices won't help your daughter, if they're in the middle of a depressed economy.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 08:04 AM |
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I have no concerns about my daughter or her fiancé,s ability to find a job, recession or no recession they both WANT to work! A recession will not
really affect their ability to borrow. Over the last few years that have chopped and changed jobs while they find something they like.
House pricing pushes them out the market hence shared ownership today, when your earning £20k and a single bed flat is £180k something is wrong.
[Edited on 30/5/16 by mark chandler]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 08:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandlerA recession will not really affect their ability to borrow.
.
Really??
You were obviously taking a vacation from Planet Earth from 2008 to about 2012, then?
And stable employment history would be one of the major criteria for borrowing.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 01:14 PM |
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With a decent deposit and good credit history you have always been able to borrow, all that's changed recently is the 80's madness where
105% mortgages are starting to appear again and 5 x your wage is possible !!!
Driven by high house prices, low inflation and greed, the sensible days of affordability have gone. I had a letter from my bank the other day offering
a remortgage taking my pension into account, would I like to borrow until I am 85 years old.... No thanks
A bit of instability may actually do us some good.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 01:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
A bit of instability may actually do us some good.
Again... really??
Are you being serious?!
I can't believe that you are so fixated on Brexit that you are genuinely trying to convince yourself that economic instability would be a
benefit!
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mark chandler
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 02:50 PM |
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Something needs to change, it's a bureaucratic mess that needs shaking up which will never happen if everyone remains complacent it will remain
as is.
Agreed there is not a convincing argument to leave, but then again there is not one to stay either. Cameron failed to deliver on his promise to
protect us 2 months ago, it's a failed experiment that will never deliver what we need in its current state or direction. UK alone cannot do
anything about this.
I'm not scared of change, there are many benefits.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 03:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Something needs to change, it's a bureaucratic mess that needs shaking up which will never happen if everyone remains complacent it will remain
as is.
You need to stop being so insular and pay attention to what is happening in the rest of Europe: other member states are far from being
complacent.
Everybody recognises that it can be developed and improved, but thus far the UK has been one of the main obstructions. As I've said before,
maybe if we get with the programme and start working with Europe instead of trying to fight against it all the time, it will serve us better.
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
...there is not one to stay either.
Yes there is.
Even the most rabid 'outers' (except the ones who think that a nice, deep recession would do us a power of good  ) have pretty
much stopped claiming that there wouldn't be an adverse financial impact if we left - all that they're bickering about these days is
how much it will hurt, and for how long.
That we are economically better off in Europe is pretty much beyond dispute.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 06:20 PM |
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But it's not just about money is it?
You need to stop being so insular and pay attention to what is happening in the rest of Europe: other member states are far from being complacent.
You mean erecting fences, guarding borders etc? Or maybe the Germans now owning Greece financially. It's not so rosy in, we maybe the
vanguard.
More about taking back control.
[Edited on 30/5/16 by mark chandler]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 07:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
But it's not just about money is it?
Possibly not, but you said there were no good reasons to stay. So you don't think that economic prosperity and stability is a good reason?
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
More about taking back control.
Well, that's where we differ:
1) Whichever way it goes, I'm not foolish enough to think that the ability to cast a vote for one of two (credible) parties, each composed of a
clique of corrupt, self-interested career politicians once every 4 years or so gives me any sort of control.
2) I happen to believe that we stand a better chance of keeping the aforesaid corrupt, self-interested career politicians in check if they are
accountable to some degree to a higher law-making body and other nations, in the form of the EU.
3) Given that I'm not stupid enough to think that I have any real influence, I'd rather be affluent, able to move and trade freely
throughout Europe, and be dictated to by a bunch of cocksockets than be poor, more restricted in my trade and movements, subject to the laws of
a government that thinks it's in my best interest and personal freedom to opt out of basic human rights legislation, and still be
dictated to by a bunch of cocksockets.
So from my perspective, it seems to boil down to the fact that you prefer to have your life run for you by English speaking, Eton-and-Oxbridge
educated cocksockets, because they're 'us' and anyone else is 'them'?
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mark chandler
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 07:19 PM |
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Eton, Oxford, Cambridge whatever is for me better than a greedy European
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Sam_68
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 07:27 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Eton, Oxford, Cambridge whatever is for me better than a greedy European
Well, as I said, for you it seems to come down to 'them' being 'foreigners'.
If you think 'our' politicians are any less greedy or corrupt, you need to ask yourself which national leader has just been exposed for
benefiting from offshore bank accounts whilst trying to criticise others for the same thing.
If the best reason you can think of to part from the EU is nationalist bigotry, then I feel sorry for you.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 08:26 PM |
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No need to feel sorry for me, I'm not a nationalist bigot far from it so you have unsurprisingly jumped at that conclusion as anything against
your mantra gets the same treatment eventually.
He was educated at Eton, his parents were successful so of course he benefited it's inescapable, not all conservatives have the same background
but then some labour do as well.
Ah well, this has run its course.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 09:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandlerI'm not a nationalist bigot far from it so you have unsurprisingly jumped at that conclusion
...
I agree, it's unsurprising.
Sorry, but what other other conclusion can I jump to, when the only and best reason you can give for wishing to leave the EU is to openly state
that you prefer to be governed by any English politicians, no matter what their background or politics, in preference to Europe?
You cannot accuse me of quoting you out of context: that was your whole post, in its entirety.
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bi22le
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| posted on 30/5/16 at 11:00 PM |
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I am an outer at the moment but not confident.
My biggest worry is that Westminster is not strong and robust. Too much inner party fighting and the shadow party should be pushing and questioning
the elected, but they are laughing stock.
If the Tories were inited, DC had more time to run and Labour actually did what shadow parties should be doing. Then i would be more confident.
The bottom line is that the EU want and are different to us. So short term will be tough, longterm we will regret it if we don't leave.
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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mark chandler
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| posted on 31/5/16 at 06:34 AM |
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We will never agree on a number of things them Sam.
1. We are not governed by a bunch of 'cocksockets' they are professional people who have decided to make a living from politics, mostly
very clever people with difficult jobs.
2. In the main I believe they will always do what is best for this country, this may also align with what's best for them but is that so bad?
What counts is the out come
3. I get the chance to vote them in, they are not then imposed upon me
4. I do not believe other countries will vote for the common good in the European Union, they will vote for what is best for them, Know one then get
the best outcome
5. Great Britain is on balance an honourable country and does look after human rights etc, and we also do what we preach, can you say the same thing
about all other EU member states? Why do you think their people are trying to get here?
6. Do you honestly believe we will ever get free trade, the day will never come when 1 Euro will get you the same item at the same price in any EU
country, it will never ever happen
7. Do you believe all other countries enforce the EU laws as closely as the Uk, on paper maybe but not in practice.
If that makes me a nationalist bigot so be it in your eyes, along with I sincerely hope the +50% who want to leave.
[Edited on 31/5/16 by mark chandler]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 31/5/16 at 06:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
We will never agree on a number of things them Sam.
Well, we agree there, at least!
And thank you for the comedy, especially on your points 1, 2, 3 and 5.
I do like to start the morning with a good giggle!
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