Rorty
|
| posted on 15/11/05 at 11:35 PM |
|
|
I just checked and this 1J type rear caliper, as fitted to the Golf IV, is also used on a total of 36 VW models, but isn't compatible with any
other car brands.
Still, that gives quite a scope for caliper hunting.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
|
|
Mark Allanson
|
| posted on 15/11/05 at 11:43 PM |
|
|
looks very similar to the 1G, and 1H type - very prone to the handbrake arm seizing up, genuine replacements about £160 each!
I think they were even used on the 19's, but only on the GTis
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 12:02 AM |
|
|
I think they are the calipers that rally design are doing for £60 apiece brand new no exchange, so certainly cheap enough!
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 12:05 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by mrlynx
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
quote:
Originally posted by madman280
The VW front would be good if you can work out mating the CV shafts to a good common diff.
Some Golfs use a 94mm OD inner CV joint, but interestingly, most later Golfs use a 100mm OD x 32mm wide CV which coincidently is the same size
as the Sierra CV! 
So, at least mating the CVs won't be a problem.
I have quite an extensive list of available Golf axle lengths, so it shouldn't be too dificult to incorporate a standard length Golf axle into
the De Dion and IRS set-ups.
Could you post that list of axels because I am looking for a way to shorten my sierra axel?
If it is of any interest I do remeber that my rear calipers on my Bora -99 is made by Lucas.
It maybe worth looking up if there is other brands of cars that also has calipers from Lucas and are interchangeable.
Can't post a full list, but if you want to look around vehicle dismantlers, the place to look is BMW. Many of these use the same CV's as
the sierra and there are several different lenght shafts fitted to these. I guess amongst the narrowest will be the E30 model fitments.
Incidentally astra GTE CV splines fit straight into sierra CV joints, possibly useful to somebody????
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 12:21 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
looks very similar to the 1G, and 1H type - very prone to the handbrake arm seizing up, genuine replacements about £160 each!
I think they were even used on the 19's, but only on the GTis
The 1HXO calipers are a different design and I'm not sure they're the same fitment, but if they are interchangeable with the 1J type, then
that opens the larder door even wider.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 12:22 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
I think they are the calipers that rally design are doing for £60 apiece brand new no exchange, so certainly cheap enough!
Yes, they're the exact same ones.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 12:57 AM |
|
|
There are only a few spline counts used for CV axles, so they will be used by quite a number of manufacturers.
Some of the more common ones are: 24/27mm, 33/27mm (Golf) and 28/31mm.
AFAIK know the Sierra uses a 25 spline count.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
smdl
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 05:18 AM |
|
|
Great discussion!
The book design is already larger than the original Lotus/Caterham chassis, and I would prefer not to make the car any wider than absolutely
necessary. With the different axle lengths apparently available, is it really necessary to go with the wider (Sierra) track as suggested earlier in
the thread? I would prefer to have the track maintained at original book width. Thoughts?
Shaun
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 05:33 AM |
|
|
The track will probably end up as wide as the VW front axles permit (what ever that may be).
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
SilverFox
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 05:46 AM |
|
|
A bit late in the game, but what a great thread Rorty has started here!
1. VW has to be the way to go. Though as an intermediate step I would favour using the front hub and bearing arrangement in a new fabricated upright
by maching off the flange of the drive spindle - similar to the formula car practice. floating bearing design or whatever they call it,
2. IIRC didn't many FFords and S2000's including van diemen Tiga et al use the VW bearing set-up for their front uprights. e.g. 75mm OD x
42 mm ID x 37 mm wide - or the other size 64 mm OD x 34 mm ID x 37 mm wide. Don't know what VW models they come from though.
3. The intermediate step refers to the possibility retaining the use of the Sierra rear hub set-up but trasnfer to the VW driveshafts as Rorty has
noted that the Lobro dimensions are the same on later Golfs. When time permiyts it could be possible to fabricate the rear uprights alon the same
lines as the fronts foucusing on light weight - just a thought!!
4. One issue on this side of the pond is that the range of reasonable cost lightweight wheels from Rota for example which weigh in at 5 Kg, is
largely for the 4 x 100 mm wheel PCD. Ford 108's are really limited and I don't know the VW is, Sooo, can the VW front hubs be readily
redrilled to suit 108, if Ford rears are used or can sierra and VW (if necessary) be redrilled to 100 mm. This gives access to many great wheel
deals.
What ever, go for it Rorty - good stuff!!!
Alf
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 06:23 AM |
|
|
1. machining the caliper mount off the rear stub axle flange requires more....machining. Still an option I'm keeping near the top.
2. Yes, the Golf unitary front wheel bearings have been used in dozens of on and off-road cars. There are quite a number of different configurations
of them.
3. I'm just giving this one crack.  But yes, that's another stick in the fire.
4. If we go with the VW parts, which looks more and more likely, it will be the MK IV ('98) onward stuff which is 5 on 100mm. Interestingly,
Bildon sell dual 4 and 5 on 100 hubs, though I'd imagine it would be cheaper to re-drill your own if you want the 4 on 100 pattern.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 09:17 AM |
|
|
Just to point out that I dislike the practice of making a car to suit available driveshaft widths. (not to say anybody is suggesting that!)
That is like building a house to fit your curtain rails.
Brand new machined from billet sierra spline lightweight bespoke driveshafts made to any length are £70 a piece, worth bearing in mind before making a
whole car wider to save £140!
[Edited on 16/11/05 by NS Dev]
[Edited on 16/11/05 by NS Dev]
|
|
|
ned
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 10:06 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by SilverFox
2. IIRC didn't many FFords and S2000's including van diemen Tiga et al use the VW bearing set-up for their front uprights. e.g. 75mm OD x
42 mm ID x 37 mm wide - or the other size 64 mm OD x 34 mm ID x 37 mm wide. Don't know what VW models they come from though.
My friends s2000 Lola t86/90 uses a golf lobro joint iirc but as stated from an older model than we're considering here (well it an 80's
design car, so what do you expect!)
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
|
|
|
Fred W B
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 11:29 AM |
|
|
re the modified VW upright Cymtrics posted - it's dead ugly! Another argument for fully fabricated uprights with some machined bits welded
in.
re inboard shocks - I would think that inboard shocks end up with much shorter travel for wheel movement compared to conventially mounted shock. I
would also think that affordable shocks as used on locosts need as much travel as possible, in order to give them a better chance of controlling the
wheel movement.
Cheers
Fred WB
[Edited on 16/11/05 by Fred W B]
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 11:43 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Just to point out that I dislike the practice of making a car to suit available driveshaft widths. (not to say anybody is suggesting that!)
That is like building a house to fit your curtain rails.
Brand new machined from billet sierra spline lightweight bespoke driveshafts made to any length are £70 a piece, worth bearing in mind before making a
whole car wider to save £140!
[Edited on 16/11/05 by NS Dev]
[Edited on 16/11/05 by NS Dev]
Jeez you love those blokes!
I know, I chop and weld axles and make billet ones without a second thought, but not everyone has either the resources, connections or the where
withall to conjur up a set of axles.
Anyway, doesn't the Book chassis conform to an existing axle width and aren't most if not all IRS and De Dion set-ups based on available
axle lengths?
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 11:46 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fred W B
re the modified VW upright Cymtrics posted - it's dead ugly! Another argument for fully fabricated uprights with some machined bits welded
in.
re inboard shocks - I would think that inboard shocks end up with much shorter travel for wheel movement compared to conventially mounted shock. I
would also think that affordable shocks as used on locosts need as much travel as possible, in order to give them a better chance of controlling the
wheel movement.
Cheers
Fred WB
[Edited on 16/11/05 by Fred W B]
I completely agree, particularly about the shockers.
In our budget market (well, in any market to be honest) you want as much shocker travel as possible, to give much better damping control.
The current fashion on inboard shocks on "low end" kit cars is in many cases daft! They have absolutely no advantage!!
I actually looked at doing something much more productive on the front of the grasser, which was to have outboard shocks with rocker top mounts and
pull rods to operate them to get more shocker movement per unit of wheel movement. (operate the shocker simultaneously from both ends)
On the current car this was pointless as I run out of balljoint travel on the transit balljoints before I run out of shocker travel, but on the new
grasser this will be changed.
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 12:13 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fred W B
re the modified VW upright Cymtrics posted - it's dead ugly! Another argument for fully fabricated uprights with some machined bits welded in.
Here here!
quote:
Originally posted by Fred W Bre inboard shocks - I would think that inboard shocks end up with much shorter travel for wheel movement
compared to conventially mounted shock. I would also think that affordable shocks as used on locosts need as much travel as possible, in order to give
them a better chance of controlling the wheel movement.
Inboard shocks would need to be quality (read expensive) items, though bike monoshocks are a good substitute and are usually quality items. But
you're right; a cheap-ish long shock is going to work better and last longer if configured as close to 1:1 as possible.
I could incorporate inboard shocks into the design, but I think it will only muddy the waters and prolong the process unnecessarily.
I don't have unlimited time to spend on this, so if I work on the premise of updating the basic Locost front end to incorporate contemporary
parts, then others can alter the design or experiment with it if they desire.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
Syd Bridge
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 01:10 PM |
|
|
A workable front solution may be to use the Rorty Cortina front upright, bolt on the VW rear setup, and use either the Cortina caliper(which is still
in use in industrial applications), or a caliper to fit the VW holes. Some spacers/adapters may be needed.
Most would have access to someone with an oxy who could cut the plate and bend it. Then dress it up with a hand grinder.
Alternatively, if someone wanted to have a large batch cut, then selling them would not be a problem if this ends up being universally accepted.
This seems to use all the bits that are being proposed, with the least amount of skilled machining.
Now, this will probably be universally unacceptable, so go ahead and rip it to bits.
Syd. 
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 01:47 PM |
|
|
Very agree also that inboard shockers aren't the way to go in addition to the other comments I would say not enough designs that use them
consider the loading implications for the chassis structure.
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 01:57 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
A workable front solution may be to use the Rorty Cortina front upright, bolt on the VW rear setup, and use either the Cortina caliper(which is still
in use in industrial applications), or a caliper to fit the VW holes. Some spacers/adapters may be needed.
snip
Syd.
I always considered the Cortina caliper one of the major drawbacks of the book design.
The front calipers needn't be huge but should allow easy fittment of vented discs
These days I find floating calipers are OK, they are stiff enough to give a solid pedal much lighter and more or less immune to pad knock back.
|
|
|
BradW
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 06:54 PM |
|
|
Hi,
I've been away for a couple of days and you guys have been busy posting :-)
Having been involved with this thread from the start I'm confident Rorty is going in the right direction, I'm eagerly awaiting the
outcome.
For my 'bit'
I think the VW route which Rorty has outlined sounds good.
A different front and rear fabricated upright which requires minimal machining, and where possible relies on 'jigsaw' type parts to help
with an accurate assembly.
The VW ball joints are cheap and easily available, but we do need to include some method of camber adjustment, which the Transit top joints offer.
I think replaceable caliper mounts are essential, but if the Rally Design rears are in fact Golf ‘design’ then they should definitely be the
‘standard’ rears
For a Locost I think inboard shocks are unnecessary.
Whilst it would be nice to allow compatibility with existing Locost designs, one of our initial criteria was to improve geometry which makes
compatibility difficult.
I’m not sure what else I can add to help but I’ll ‘jump in’ if I think of anything.
Congrats again to Rorty for taking this on, maybe a summary of his current ‘position’ may be in order.
Cheers
Brad
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 08:59 PM |
|
|
I don't see the point in using an old caliper that's just as dificult to obtain as the uprights they bolt to and which are the reason this
movement began..
In my opinion, the folded plate upright is a really good design even if I say so myself. However, it's got its drawbacks for the average home
builder, so I will be working on a keyed upright design. I will probably make drawings available to commercial enterprises so they can knock out plate
uprights to the new geometry. My Cortina plate upright is no better (geometry wise) than the OEM Cortina upright and will not be compatible with the
new front end design.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Very agree also that inboard shockers aren't the way to go in addition to the other comments I would say not enough designs that use them
consider the loading implications for the chassis structure.
That's a very valid point. The chassis would really need to be looked at closely and possibly redesigned too.
perhaps when I have this little project finished and get some more paying work done, I will look at designing a couple of new chassis:
- A front-engine Locost replacement (possibly with inboard front suspension)
- A mid-engine chassis utilising the new front end design, De Dion rear end (with Golf hubs and brakes) and mid-mounted Golf/VR6 engine.
But that's a long way off right now.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
AGK7
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 10:18 PM |
|
|
it just occurred to me that the subaru rear end i have in the shed which i plan to set up in a DeDion axle also shares the 5 x 100 PCD and is
well suited to my 100+ chassis.
Perhaps this offers another option for rear end donors coupled with the new Rorty front end. Whilst i know the intent is a single donor the subaru
parts are widely available in Aus with many diff ratio also.
I plan on turning the rear upright down to a bearing carrier and using the backing plate fixings to bolt it to the axle?? Any thoughts?
[Edited on 16/11/05 by AGK7]
[Edited on 16/11/05 by AGK7]
Cheers
Andrew K
Albury, Australia
|
|
|
Rorty
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 11:12 PM |
|
|
Design Summary.
Just for Brad.
Thanks to everyone for their input and suggestions, they've all been interesting, most of them valid and extremely useful in lighting my way.
What started out as a proposal to redesign the front suspension of the Locost to bring it into the 21st century has developed into a partial redesign
of the rear suspension too. It makes sense to bring the rear end in line with the front and that it can be done by utilising components from the same
donor that's giving up its parts for the front end is all the sweeter.
In reality, all that's required to align both the De Dion and IRS with the front end is a new rear hub bearing housing, so that's a minor
task to nut out.
Although some viable options were submitted for the new front end such as the MR2 (Miata) there were issues with availability, cost and amount of
machining required to make them work in a mass global sense. I believe the way forward is now unanimous and pretty clear;
- The (Mk IV and Mk V (1998-)) VW Golf offers the most comprehensive kit of parts to suit both the front and rear ends.
- Golf components are plentiful, globally available and look like being with us for some time to come.
- Minimal machining is required to make the Golf components work.
The design proposal:
Front end
- Bi-directional, fabricated, keyed upright (with possibly uni-directional, folded plate uprights for interested industry).
- Final geometry to be confirmed (once I have modelled all the hard components), but aiming for <8° KPI, 38 ET (standard Golf!), 10mm-15mm scrub
radius, +ve 6.5° castor, –ve1.5° static camber and modified Ackermann.
- Machined stub axle.
- Golf 5 on 100mm rear hub.
- Choice of solid (9mm), or ventilated (20mm) Golf rear disc.
- Interchangeable calliper brackets.
- Selection of calliper brackets for popular callipers.
- Golf bolt-on lower balljoint.
- Upper balljoint to be confirmed (probably VW TRE from commercial vehicle).
- Camber adjuster for upper balljoint.
- Golf tie rod end.
- New lower and upper wishbones.
- New wishbone brackets and probably minor modifications to Book chassis.
- Golf steering rack (hopefully. I'll know when I can get relevant data).
- New rack mounts.
- Golf wheel rims.
- 205/50-15 tyres.
Rear end
- Fabricated and machined hub bearing housing (to suit my (to be re-worked) existing De Dion and IRS set-ups).
- Golf front outer CV/stub axle, axle and inner CV.
- Golf 5 on 100mm front hub.
- Choice of solid (9mm), or ventilated (20mm-30mm!) Golf front disc.
- Calliper bracket.
- Golf rear calliper with in-built hand brake (The 1J rear calliper is also fitted to the Audi A3 & TT (2 and 4 wheel drive derivatives) and Neu
Beetle. Virtually identical callipers are also found on some Seat and Skoda models too).
- Hand brake cable from either a Bora, Cabrio, Golf, Jetta or Scirroco (there are plenty of lengths/configurations to choose from).
- Golf wheel rims.
- 205/50-15 tyres.
If I have overlooked something, please shout now.
Over to you now.
Apart from the wheel rim, lower balljoint, front wheel bearing and I have none of the data or any of the Golf components listed above, and I need
accurate dimensions of all the parts to be able to model the new suspension and make it all work.
I am unable to visit wreckers' yards or otherwise source the major parts, so, if you, or your brother-in-law, or your neighbour have a Mk IV and
Mk V (1998-) Golf, then please can you let me have the data I require.
If you have access to fiche or other trade references, you may be able to glean some data there. Or maybe you know someone who works in a VW
dealership? If you have any trade catalogues with dimensioned diagrams for items like the TRE, then I'd welcome that info too.
If you have the parts, but aren't sure how to go about extracting the data, email me and I'll give you instructions on how to accurately
take the measurements.
I'm also happy (in fact I would prefer) to receive actual parts and reverse engineer them myself, so if anyone can source any of the parts and
post them to me, I promise I'll return them within a few days.
[Edited on 17/11/05 by Rorty]
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
|
|
|
Mark Allanson
|
| posted on 16/11/05 at 11:27 PM |
|
|
Don't forget that the 1J also includes the Seat, Skoda, Audi A3 & TT, Beetle derivatives, 2 and 4 wheel drive.
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
|
|
|
