Rorty
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 12:05 AM |
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Sorry, I don't know what happened to the formatting in my last post.
quote:
Originally posted by AGK7
it just occurred to me that the subaru rear end i have in the shed which i plan to set up in a DeDion axle also shares the 5 x 100 PCD  and is
well suited to my 100+ chassis.
Perhaps this offers another option for rear end donors coupled with the new Rorty front end. Whilst i know the intent is a single donor the subaru
parts are widely available in Aus with many diff ratio also.
I plan on turning the rear upright down to a bearing carrier and using the backing plate fixings to bolt it to the axle?? Any thoughts?
Which model of Subaru are you talking about? It's certainly another option. Be advised the wheels may well match the Golf's 5 x 100 PCD,
but the off-sets are way off on the Subarus (vary between 40 and 50 ET).
Here are some other 5 on 100mm, Ø 57mm c/bore wheel choices that could work with the new set-up:
Audi A3, 30-40 ET, Ø 57mm c/bore).
Buick Skylark 89>, 35-40 ET, Ø 57mm c/bore.
Chevrolet Corsica 89>, Beretta 89> and Cavalier 89>, 35-40 ET, Ø 57mm c/bore.
Chrysler Neon, 35-40 ET, Ø 57mm c/bore.
Dodge Stratus 95>, Shadow 94> and Daytona 94>, 35-40 ET, Ø 57mm c/bore.
Rover 75, 35 ET, Ø 57mm c/bore.
Seat Toledo GTi 16v 95>. 30-35 ET – use the 35ET variety.
Skoda Octavia, 35-38 ET, Ø 57mm c/bore.
Toyota Avensis, Camry >90, Carina, Celica and Corona, 35-38 ET and Ø 54 c/bore which could be machined out to Ø 57mm.
Volkswagen Neu Beetle, Bora, Corrado VR6, Golf Mk III GTi & VR6, Golf Mk IV, Passat VR6, Vento VR6 and Golf Mk V, 32-38 ET.
In the cases where there are a selection of ETs, use the ET variants as close to 38 ET as possible. Small differences either side of 38 ET won't
make a huge difference.
The Citroen Evasion misses the mark a bit with 5 x 98 PCD, and Ø 58mm c/bore. What's that about!
The Volvo 340, 360, 440, 460 and 480 are all 4 x 100, 32-38 ET and Ø 52mm c/bore, so would need the bores machined out and the hubs re-drilled too.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Rorty
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 12:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Don't forget that the 1J also includes the Seat, Skoda, Audi A3 & TT, Beetle derivatives, 2 and 4 wheel drive.
Thanks Mark. Actually the 1J is confined to the Volkswagen range, but virtually identical callipers are indeed fitted to the other makes you mention.
I think most people would be sourcing their rear callipers at the same time as the rear hubs, but I'll add the alternatives to my list above in
case anyone misses them in your post. 
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 12:27 AM |
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The 1J part number is restricted to the VW range, but the actual metal is universal.
If you look at the Golf Chassis number, e.g. WVWZZZ1JZTW??????, you can see the 1J part included on digit 7 & 9, the subsequent part numbers carry
this on in the 1J? ??? ??? format.
All the other derivitives use the same rule, but the subsequent parts do carry the 1J? part number.
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
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AGK7
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 12:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
.
Which model of Subaru are you talking about? It's certainly another option. Be advised the wheels may well match the Golf's 5 x 100 PCD,
but the off-sets are way off on the Subarus (vary between 40 and 50 ET).
Rorty,
The rear end i have is out of a 93' Liberty RS Turbo (45mm Offset i think??). As mentioned i plan on turning the rear uprights down to A
lighten and B make them more easiely bolted to a fabricated DeDion axle. If i was to utilise the VW 38 ET then i don't think this would worry
the rear too much?? (Much learning going on for me so i may be way off the mark ) This would allow me to use the standard subi diff and half shafts
which seem to work well and a the much anticipated Rorty front end. My eng wants a single brake donor  front and rear so i would need to look at
mounting the vw units to the subi rear end??
From what i gather the VW rear calliper includes the handbrake mech in it?? Is that correct?
Thanks again for a most valuable thread!!
Cheers
Andrew K
Albury, Australia
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 01:39 AM |
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re: inboard shocks .
i went to inboard shocks simply because with wide track front , the length of the damper was simply going to be too long.
plus i already had some short dampers !
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Rorty
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 01:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AGK7
Rorty,
The rear end i have is out of a 93' Liberty RS Turbo (45mm Offset i think??). As mentioned i plan on turning the rear uprights down to A
lighten and B make them more easiely bolted to a fabricated DeDion axle. If i was to utilise the VW 38 ET then i don't think this would worry
the rear too much?? (Much learning going on for me so i may be way off the mark) This would allow me to use the standard subi diff and half shafts
which seem to work well and a the much anticipated Rorty front end. My eng wants a single brake donor front and rear so i would need to look at
mounting the vw units to the subi rearend??
From what i gather the VW rear calliper includes the handbrake mech in it?? Is that correct?
Thanks again for a most valuable thread!!
That sounds like it will all work out nicely.
I would use the Sub diff and axles, and make a new hub bearing housing to bolt to the De Dion axle. You'd spend an age trimming all the crap off
the existing housing and for what – to end up with a little tube? I'm not familiar with your Sub's rear hubs, but I'd imagine all
that's required is to weld a flange onto a suitable length of pipe (or make the whole thing from bar stock) and then face the flange in the
lathe and bore the housing to suit the bearings, including any shoulders or circlip grooves etc.
I would make the De Dion plate up to accept the VW rear calliper (which does indeed have the handbrake built into it) and away you go.
Don't get me started about ADRs or the approved bloody engineers!
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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AGK7
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 02:46 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
That sounds like it will all work out nicely.
I would use the Sub diff and axles, and make a new hub bearing housing to bolt to the De Dion axle. You'd spend an age trimming all the crap off
the existing housing and for what – to end up with a little tube? I'm not familiar with your Sub's rear hubs, but I'd imagine all
that's required is to weld a flange onto a suitable length of pipe (or make the whole thing from bar stock) and then face the flange in the
lathe and bore the housing to suit the bearings, including any shoulders or circlip grooves etc.
I would make the De Dion plate up to accept the VW rear calliper (which does indeed have the handbrake built into it) and away you go.
Don't get me started about ADRs or the approved bloody engineers!
Looks like it might be time for me to try and source some VW bits. As for the ADR's not much we can do but it does get pretty frustrating at
times
Where are you based UK or Aus ?? I might be able to help with some parts
PS did you here our bloody soccer players after 31 years finally made it back into the world cup
Cheers
Andrew K
Albury, Australia
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Rorty
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 03:24 AM |
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I'm stuck in Melbourne at the minute.
Any help you can offer with the Golf parts would be great.
I know, I turned the TV on at 6am and there was nothing but green and gold on Sunrise.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Nisseven
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 10:57 AM |
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Shame about your Rugby team and the netball team. You'll always win the Aussie Rules though.
Seriously great work and thoughts coming through. Keep it up.
Bruce Kelly.
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davidfe
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 04:32 PM |
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Rack
I did not see it mentioned regarding the need for LHD and RHD for use anywhere.
David Edwards
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Sven
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 06:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
OK Steve, put your money where your mouth is; lets have the dimensions of a Golf rack then. 
22" balljoint to balljoint. I just measured it yesterday as I'm trying to get it to fit in my Locost. FWIW, the rack is from a mid
80's Golf.
Sadly, it seems to long, really ... doesn't align correctly with the control arm pivots.
-Steve
[Edited on 11/17/2005 by Sven]
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cymtriks
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 08:36 PM |
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I think there might have been a misunderstanding over my last post!
I was not implying that the modified VW hub fitted to a seven type car on the link I posted was the way to go. That's why I said we could
probably do better.
I was just showing you all that someone somewhere was already using the very bits that we had identified.
Regarding geometry
I reckon a scrub radius of 10mm - 3/8 inch or less.
Consider-
Lotus Elise scrub is 10.5mm
Mazda Miata/MX5 scrub is zero.
I still reckon that the single donor argument is a red herring! Who gets all their parts from one car? Who is going to buy an entire car for just the
hubs?
Using the same hub all round is simpler for us in practice and makes the concept more attractive for small scale manufacture as it immediately doubles
the production run.
It also alllows a great deal of future flexibility in design. 4wd, either for performance or for buggy type cars is possible. fwd for any future mini
marcos or Onyx type cars would be possible. Inboard disc brakes are another possibility at the front though I accept that you never see this
arrangement these days. And of course simple rwd is also possible.
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Rorty
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 08:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by davidfe
I did not see it mentioned regarding the need for LHD and RHD for use anywhere.
David Edwards
You'll definitely need one or the other.
It was mentioned somewhere along the way. I'm hoping a standard VW rack will fit the picture. If not, it would make sense to shorten a VW one
rather than modifying an Escort, Cortina, or Sierra rack.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Rorty
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 08:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
OK Steve, put your money where your mouth is; lets have the dimensions of a Golf rack then.
22" balljoint to balljoint. I just measured it yesterday as I'm trying to get it to fit in my Locost. FWIW, the rack is from a mid
80's Golf.
Sadly, it seems to long, really ... doesn't align correctly with the control arm pivots.
What a top bloke! As the VW is a metric car, I presume you meant to say 560mm? or is it actually 558.8mm?
Anyway, thanks for that. Hopefully I'll be able to work that into the design without the need to cut and shut it.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Rorty
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| posted on 17/11/05 at 09:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cymtriks
I still reckon that the single donor argument is a red herring! Who gets all their parts from one car? Who is going to buy an entire car for just the
hubs?
I seriously doubt if anyone would consider buying a Golf just for the hubs and discs, but faced with a wrecker's yard that has just the one
Golf, it's going to be much more convenient for the scrounger to get all his needs from the sole car than having to trawl through other yards
looking for another car.
quote:
Originally posted by cymtriksUsing the same hub all round is simpler for us in practice and makes the concept more attractive for small
scale manufacture as it immediately doubles the production run.
It also alllows a great deal of future flexibility in design. 4wd, either for performance or for buggy type cars is possible. fwd for any future mini
marcos or Onyx type cars would be possible. Inboard disc brakes are another possibility at the front though I accept that you never see this
arrangement these days. And of course simple rwd is also possible.
I do agree, it would be nice to run an identical hub (and possibly upright) at each corner, differing only by the addition of separate steering arms
and calliper mounts.
It's actually not that big a job to do two front uprights; one with a fixed stub axle that would accept the VW rear hub and disc and another
that would accept the new rear bearing housing and a floating axle.
Both versions would require making a front stub axle (although another pair of floating CV/stubs could be modified to run in the bearing housing type
upright).
Yup, I'll work on both types then.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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AGK7
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| posted on 18/11/05 at 01:42 AM |
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Rorty et al
Speaking to one of the Sydney based VW wreckers yesterday and he seemed very sure that the front and rear calliper mounts are different. I suppose
this means a custom bracket will be needed. They wanted about $500AUS for full set of rears (stub, hub, disk & calliper) These were off a MK3 i
think as he hadn't wreck a mk4 as yet.
[Edited on 18/11/05 by AGK7]
Cheers
Andrew K
Albury, Australia
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Rorty
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| posted on 18/11/05 at 02:23 AM |
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Thanks for the feedback Andrew. Yes, I'm now pretty sure the calliper mounts are different. It might not be a big deal to make up an adaptor
though, as the front callipers already use adaptors. See the pic below.
The Mk III wheels and hubs are 5x100, so the rest of the parts required may well be compatible with Mk IV and MK IV models too.
It would be perfect if they were.
We really need a VW insider to confirm interchangeability of parts across the different models from '91 to present, but for the time being,
I'll proceed with Mk IV and later stuff.
 
Rescued attachment R32_calliper_bracket_01.jpg
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 18/11/05 at 04:23 PM |
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Is that picture just above a Golf? If it is, then the lower BJ is very different to the one shown on the first page or so of this discussion.
BJ above has a nut, and probably taper; BJ at start has straight sides and uses a captive pinch bolt.
I know zip about VW's, but those two are very different to each other.
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Rorty
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| posted on 18/11/05 at 11:01 PM |
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Mk V models have a taper stud balljoint, as in the picture above.
Earlier models used a spigot type balljoint and to complicate matters further, there are two different diameters of spigot used.
[Edited on 19/11/05 by Rorty]
 
Rescued attachment balljoint_spigot_01.jpg
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Rorty
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| posted on 19/11/05 at 12:25 AM |
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The spigot diameter of the pre December '85 balljoint is 15mm. From 12/85 to 7/87 the diameter increased to 17mm and then from 8/87 to 8/97 the
diameter was upped to 19mm diameter.
Thereafter VW changed the lower balljoints to the taper stud variety, thoufg AFAICD, the 3-bolt pattern remained unchanged.
 
Rescued attachment balljoint-fr-lwr_Golf-Jetta_8.97-_01.jpg
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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davidfe
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| posted on 19/11/05 at 02:07 AM |
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Larger Ball Joint Shaft Diameter
Rorty,
Thanks for all the research. It just confirms that the larger ball joint diameter from the most recent design, should provide a greater margin of
safety. This is especially true as HP increases and the related stresses on suspension components.
David Edwards
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Rorty
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| posted on 19/11/05 at 04:07 AM |
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Thanks for your help too David.
For anyone considering converting to VW running gear but is unsure of what OEM wheels they can look forwards to, here's a fairly comprehensive
database of OEM VW wheels.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Rorty
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| posted on 19/11/05 at 04:51 AM |
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VW wheel Bolts.
All OEM Audi and VW wheel bolts have a ball face.
Most aftermarket wheels have conical seats which are incompatible with ball face bolts and wheel nuts, so it would be worth checking them before
purchasing if using OEM wheel bolts.
Some BBS wheels do have ball seats.
All 4-stud VWs use M12x1.5mm wheel bolts and All 5-stud VWs use M14x1.5 bolts.
A much easier alternative is to throw the VW wheel bolts over the nearest hedge and install some wheel studs.
Aftermarket screw-in studs are available in M14 x 1.5 and should be stuck in place with one of Loctite's high temperature thread lockers.
Personally, I would be inclined to fit proper headed and splined M14 x 1.5 wheel studs, which, again, can be bought from wheel shops or swiped from an
unsuspecting VW Type 2 (Bus, Camper, Vanagon, Synchro) or any other VW commercial down at your local wrecker's yard.
After that, you can choose which type of nuts/wheels to fit and they'll be much easier to haul on and off the hub too.
 
Rescued attachment wheel_bolts_02.jpg
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Sven
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| posted on 19/11/05 at 06:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rorty
What a top bloke! As the VW is a metric car, I presume you meant to say 560mm? or is it actually 558.8mm?
Aw shucks ... I decided to pull the rack apart tonight to see what I could see and what I did see was that to shorten the rack's rack (whatever
that toothed bar thingummy is called) 2-3 inches (50.8-72.6mm) would be quite simple if one had a lathe that could handle it ... and I know a fella
that does ...
I would cut off a chunk to suit the required length then drill into the ends of the rack up to a 37/64" drill and tap to 5/8-18 threads so I
could install a spherical bearing and jam nut.
Have to look into this a little more to see how this method would effect my turning circle but, a quick glance, makes me think it wouldn't be
too much of an issue.
-Steve
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Rorty
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| posted on 19/11/05 at 08:06 AM |
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As far as I can tell at the moment, the standard rack will work OK without modification.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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