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Author: Subject: ali spaceframe
philipcurtis100

posted on 3/9/09 at 07:21 PM Reply With Quote
ali spaceframe

im going to build a space frame out of aluminium
i just what to know what grade people think i should use
im using 3 1/2" tube 3mm thick wall
thanks

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blakep82

posted on 3/9/09 at 07:27 PM Reply With Quote
the grade i would suggest is steel.

its been discussed loads on here, and generally isn't a good idea.

stress fatigue is a main cause. to make it strong enough if would need to be very thick, by which time its about the same weight as a steel one would be

consider the response from your last thread about this BAD IDEA

[Edited on 3/9/09 by blakep82]





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aaron bassett

posted on 3/9/09 at 07:28 PM Reply With Quote
dont go there lol only joking you will have to think of ali being brittle and for you to get the same strenth of steel you will have to make it as heavy as steal. better making it as a monocoque out of alley

[Edited on 3/9/09 by aaron bassett]

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afj

posted on 3/9/09 at 07:34 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by aaron bassett
dont go there lol only joking you will have to think of ali being brittle and for you to get the same strenth of steel you will have to make it as heavy as steal. better making it as a mono cock out of alley


mono cock





eerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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speedyxjs

posted on 3/9/09 at 07:35 PM Reply With Quote
What are your reasons for wanting it ally? Is it just weight saving?
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deezee

posted on 3/9/09 at 07:45 PM Reply With Quote
Can I have your engine and gearbox after it looks like spaghetti and you've given up?


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blakep82

posted on 3/9/09 at 07:48 PM Reply With Quote
^ ah, heat distortion? hadn't thought of that





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speedyxjs

posted on 3/9/09 at 08:01 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deezee
Can I have your engine and gearbox after it looks like spaghetti and you've given up?




You dont know what engine it is. For all you know it could be a bike engine





How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?

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jambojeef

posted on 3/9/09 at 08:10 PM Reply With Quote
Tell owners of ferrari 612s and 360s that ally spaceframes arent a good idea!
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DorsetStrider

posted on 3/9/09 at 08:25 PM Reply With Quote
How do you intend to mount the suspension?

As I recall the robin hood lightweight was red flagged at SVA because it was discovered the ali brackets were not up to the job.

Personally having looked into this unless your going the mono cock route I'd advise using steel.





Who the f**K tightened this up!

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deezee

posted on 3/9/09 at 08:38 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jambojeef
Tell owners of ferrari 612s and 360s that ally spaceframes arent a good idea!


LOL ok, you send em around and I'll tell em. Although I can only half tell em, cos half their car is monocoque. Even though compared to the 355 the 360 is only 30kgs lighter. Not a lot more in a 1400 kg car.






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blakep82

posted on 3/9/09 at 08:57 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deezee
quote:
Originally posted by jambojeef
Tell owners of ferrari 612s and 360s that ally spaceframes arent a good idea!


LOL ok, you send em around and I'll tell em. Although I can only half tell em, cos half their car is monocoque. Even though compared to the 355 the 360 is only 30kgs lighter. Not a lot more in a 1400 kg car.


plus i bet ferrari spend a lot of money on R&D for their mono cock chassis. a few hundred thousand maybe? well, a bit more than asking on a forum, thats for sure





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Ivan

posted on 3/9/09 at 09:01 PM Reply With Quote
Why settle for aluminium when, with the same amount of research, and for possibly much less risk of fatigue failure, you can go for Carbon Fibre and really have bragging rights - and end up with a lighter chassis.
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philipcurtis100

posted on 3/9/09 at 09:27 PM Reply With Quote
motorbikes r made out of ali they dont brake or bend etc
i just wanted suggestions of grade to use
not
steels better bla bla bla

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Staple balls

posted on 3/9/09 at 09:58 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by philipcurtis100
motorbikes r made out of ali they dont brake or bend etc
i just wanted suggestions of grade to use
not
steels better bla bla bla



Okay, tell me how a motorbike's frame design translates into a car's spaceframe.

The alu route has been discussed many, many, many times, and I'm not sure anyone makes an alu spaceframe (I think mk used to, but only for track use)

Really, there's no sensible reason to make make a locost of of alu, it's just not suited to the job.

[Edited on 3/9/09 by Staple balls]






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Canada EH!

posted on 3/9/09 at 09:59 PM Reply With Quote
Do you have the same heat treating ovens as Ferrari, to normalize the chassis once it is all tig welded together?

Also do you want to bend and twist the first one to see how it handles stress?

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DorsetStrider

posted on 3/9/09 at 10:14 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by philipcurtis100
motorbikes r made out of ali they dont brake or bend etc
i just wanted suggestions of grade to use
not
steels better bla bla bla



Once more I'd like to refer you to the robin hood lightweight. How do you propose to mount the suspension on an ali spaceframe in order to get it throu the IVA? or is this a track only car?





Who the f**K tightened this up!

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liam.mccaffrey

posted on 3/9/09 at 10:25 PM Reply With Quote
this is a wind up OR you work in the office and you have miss understood your more technical colleagues advice.

Trust me they didn't mean for you to build an ali space frame. A motorbike chasis is not a spaceframe. A casting is not a spaceframe

EDIT
An ali motorbike frame isn't a spaceframe

[Edited on 3/9/09 by liam.mccaffrey]





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blakep82

posted on 3/9/09 at 11:23 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by philipcurtis100
motorbikes r made out of ali they dont brake or bend etc
i just wanted suggestions of grade to use
not
steels better bla bla bla



you're not going to get suggestion on what grade to use because its a terrible idea.
you're getting 'steel's better bla bla bla' because, steel is better. simple as that

out of both your threads on the subject, the response has been the same

[Edited on 3/9/09 by blakep82]





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nitram38

posted on 4/9/09 at 04:36 AM Reply With Quote
I don't want to poo poo your idea, but I worked for 5 years in a welding and fabrication workshop. I have welded both cars and bikes.
There are cars that have used aluminium chassis but the problem with it is that it is a crystaline metal which means that it fractures easily compared to steel.
To get over this, the ali is thicker or cast into required shapes.
The structure bending under welding is also an issue as it seems to pull more than steel.
For the amateur builder, stay with steel, because you will not even notice the power to weight gain from a slightly lighter chassis.






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scootz

posted on 4/9/09 at 07:04 AM Reply With Quote
If it was a viable option, then you can bet your boots that most kit-manufacturers would be selling them right now.
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907

posted on 4/9/09 at 07:15 AM Reply With Quote
Welded Fabrications

When metal solidifies it forms into crystals that are more or less equal in shape and size.
Diagram A shows this in simple form. Aluminium in this form is low in tensile strength. (Soft)

When it is made into usable shapes in the mills it's rolled and extruded while it's cold,
and this squashes the crystals as in diagram B.
In this form the tensile strength is much higher. In sheet form this is what is termed "half hard".
Further cold working increases the tensile strength even more, like the ali angle that you can buy in Homebase for instance.

When metal is welded it re-crystallizes from B back to A, and also the surrounding area, the heat affected zone. (HAZ)

Aluminium is a fantastic conductor of heat so the HAZ is huge, so in a welded fabrication we have high strength areas
and very soft areas, the red bits in diagram C.

This is why cars that use ali in there construction are riveted, bolted or glued, and not welded. e.g. Lotus.


It's more complicated than this but this may go some way to explain.

Cheers
Paul G

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02GF74

posted on 4/9/09 at 01:12 PM Reply With Quote
forget aluminium mono cock, make it from tit anium.






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200mph

posted on 4/9/09 at 01:39 PM Reply With Quote
F*ck it - go make it out of gold

It seems you're looking for an answer that you want to hear, rather than the right answer.

If so, why ask the question in the first place?

I'll ask my dog and see what grade he suggests.

Edit: my dog says to use steel....

[Edited on 4/9/09 by 200mph]





If it isn't broke, fix it until it is

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kb58

posted on 4/9/09 at 03:30 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 907
...Aluminium is a fantastic conductor of heat so the HAZ is huge, so in a welded fabrication we have high strength areas
and very soft areas, the red bits in diagram C...

And to take this one step further, once the aluminum chassis is done, it'll be very weak due to all the HAZ areas. Unless it's properly heat-treated, the resulting assembly is a waste of time and money.





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