alister667
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 11:31 AM |
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MSA reverse gear requirements for Sprints and Hillclimbs
Gents,
Got an email this morning from our local sprint coordinator. regarding the new classes coming in this year, and also a 'press release'
from the MSA on reverse gears....
Press Release from MSA
Sprint & Hill Climb regulation clarification
The Motor Sports Association has issued a clarification of the regulation regarding the reverse gears of vehicles competing in Sprints and Hill
Climbs.
From 1st January 2010, Road-Going Series Production and Road-Going Specialist Production Cars must have a reverse gear operable at all times.
For Modified Limited Production, Modified Specialist Production Cars, Hill Climb Super Sports, Sports Libre and Racing Cars, a reverse gear is not
required.
This clarification has been necessitated by the implementation of mandatory categories for 2010 and will prevent the dilution of the Road Classes by
competitors who are running Specials.
Release MSA10-008: 29 January 2010
Issued on behalf of the Motor Sports Association
For further MSA information please contact Ben Taylor
Telephone: +44 (0)7866 449940 E-mail: media@msauk.org
As the "Road Going Specialist Production Cars" appears to cover the old kit car class (am I wrong in my classes??) this means no go
without a reverse for BECs.
What a great way for them to cut down on entries!
This rules out all the cars who came 1st, 2nd and 3rd from last years (class 9) NI championship. It means I can now drive my car to and from events,
but I can't take part in a road going class.
Barmy.
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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imp paul
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 11:40 AM |
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o man this is going to put more costs on builds seem mad so does this mean i need to fit a reverse gear to my imp for hill climbing ? more rules 
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phoenix70
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 11:42 AM |
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I suppose it does bring the regs in line with new IVA regs requiring a reverse gear.
I must admit it I've alway felt that a road going vehicle should have a reverse gear anyway.
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 11:52 AM |
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Hi
It's a clarification, not a rule change - that rule was exactly the same last year.
Just some clubs wrote their event regs to work around it. This year there's been a clamp down to try and make the clubs all run to the same
rules and ensure a car eligible in one area of the country is also Ok in another.
Which is very sensible as it used to cause chaos.
People used to turn up with cars 'built to the book' and find them unable to compete as their local club was doing something different.
You're falling foul of just that bit now - but the opposite way round.
Over in the NW of the Uk, reverse in specialist prod (kits!) has always been a requirement (in most of the events anyway..) so the change for us has
been 1A to 1B tyres.
Trivial you would think, but so far it's meant, dry sumping it, new wheels, shocks, springs oh and a set of tyres of course..
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 11:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
o man this is going to put more costs on builds seem mad so does this mean i need to fit a reverse gear to my imp for hill climbing ? more rules
Doubt it - what class are you building it for?
As by the sound of it; it's not going to have a Coventry Climax based engine in it, so you'll be in sports libre?
Therefore reverse not required..
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alister667
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 11:55 AM |
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Well I've always felt that if the car passed it's SVA/IVA reqs at the time and has a current MOT that should be OK.
It's now the situation that I can drive my car to a sprint (totally legally, properly registered, taxed, MOT'd, insured) but I can't
take part in a road going class. Nor can I drive my car to a sprint on slicks and take part in a race class. Indeed there's no way I could
compete against those guys in a road going car.
I'm not a big fan or reverses on roadgoing BECs, and I've cleared 15,000 miles (at least!) on the roads without one.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 12:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by alister667
Well I've always felt that if the car passed it's SVA/IVA reqs at the time and has a current MOT that should be OK.
It's now the situation that I can drive my car to a sprint (totally legally, properly registered, taxed, MOT'd, insured) but I can't
take part in a road going class. Nor can I drive my car to a sprint on slicks and take part in a race class. Indeed there's no way I could
compete against those guys in a road going car.
So tell me, why should a club in your area be allowed to do what it likes?
It's exaclty this sort of thinking that caused the situation where people couldn't travel to events in other areas. A simple set of
national rules, applicable to all and the job's done.
Everybody will have incurred some cost in getting to this point, in your case - Fit an electric reverse - in mine completly re-engineer the
lubrication system and suspension..
But IMHO it's well worth it.
Getting everybody the same will grow the class, as it'll make it simple to explain.
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alister667
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 01:26 PM |
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A set of National Rules is a good idea. What I'd hope for is that the rules are framed to be inclusive and not exclude a majority of cars in a
class.
You say costs will be incurred. That's not entirely true, what will happen is that a lot of folks simply won't enter. I know I
won't. I built my car without provision for a reverse and I won't pull it apart to fit one. As I said I simply wont compete. Sprinting
and hillclimbing should be aiming at encouraging people to join in, not excluding them for arbitrary reasons. And don't tell me this is a
safety issue, it only applies to the road going classes.
Indeed the implication is that this is defines the eligibility of a road car. Which isn't right.
This move makes illegal 60% of the cars entered in Class 9 (now 5) last year in the NI Sprint and Hillclimb championships (by my calculations) and it
seems a tad... mmm. Daft.
Especially as there were few enough of us on for turning up last year. I did both championships last year and was only planning on doing a couple of
events this year, now I'll do none. Which is a shame.
Ah well, worse things happen at sea!
All the best,
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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alister667
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 01:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
o man this is going to put more costs on builds seem mad so does this mean i need to fit a reverse gear to my imp for hill climbing ? more rules
This reverse rule seems to only apply to classes 1-5 as far as I can figure out. Depends what class you're aiming at.
1. Road Going Production Cars up to 1700cc, 2WD only
2. Road Going Production Cars over 1700cc, 2WD only
3. Road Going Production Cars 4WD
4. Road Going Specialist Production Cars up to 2500cc, having no more than 2 valves per cylinder
5. All other Road Going Specialist Production Cars
6. Modified Limited Production Cars, 2WD only
7. Modified Specialist Production cars, 2WD only
8. Sports Libre Special Saloon Cars up to 1400cc, having no more than 2 valves per cylinder or 1000cc having more
than 2 valves per cylinder, 2WD only.
9 Sports Libre Cars, 2WD only
10. Sports Libre Rally Cars up to 1650cc, 2WD only
11. Sports Libre Rally Cars over 1650cc, 2WD only
12. All other 4WD Sports Libre Cars
13. Racing Cars complying with Formula VW or Club Formula Ford (FF1600)
14. Racing Cars up to 2000cc, having no more than 2 valves per cylinder or up to 1400cc multivalve
15. All other Racing Cars
16. Historic Road Going Saloons and Sportscars
Good Luck
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 02:05 PM |
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Hi Ali
Sorry you're not happy about it, and i'm not going to defend it other than to point out again:-
No MSA rules have been changed.
Oddly it's not in the definition of what constitues a road car as far as I'm aware, it's a specific requirement for speed events.
It's your club's ability to invent rules that's been removed.
If they had been working to the MSA rules in the first place You and I would both be still competing at a guess, and it would have cost me around £3k
less to start playing this season..
I can well understand you not being willing to alter your car - but you'll miss it!
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 02:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
o man this is going to put more costs on builds seem mad so does this mean i need to fit a reverse gear to my imp for hill climbing ? more rules
Having just spent a very enjoyable few minutes looking at your photo archive that most definatly going to be in Sports Libre - 10/10 that Man!
So no reverse gear needed for that one!
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alister667
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 02:55 PM |
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Hi Jim,
You know what they say about folks who argue on the internet  but there were a couple of points I wanted to touch on. I promise this is the
last!!
Originally this rule was brought in to prevent people cracking open car gearboxes and removing cogs, or buying hugely expensive specialist motorsport
gearboxes for their road cars, now it is being used to prevent BECs from competing, or at least adding complexity to their builds.
It's implementation now will reduce numbers and make it more difficult for people to take part. That's a fact.
My club has had it's ability to be pragmatic removed, it has not invented rules.
In all last year's sprints and hills events there was one competitor from ROI (not MSA covered) at one event and none at all from the Mainland
in my class. Who exactly are we keeping it fair for?
Finally, I would not have started competing in my car if this rule was strictly enforced. I built my car for the road and was drawn into competing by
the very fact that it didn't require a pile of work to get into motorsport. If it had have done I would have shrugged and stuck with track
days.
It seems a shame to exclude people from motorsport for no good reason. And you are right, I will miss it!
All the best
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 04:00 PM |
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Hi Ali
Nah it's not an argument, difference of opinion maybe
I can see and understand your point, but look at the situation here:-
We already have BEC's and CEC's mixed, no problem at all.
The problem with clubs doing what they wanted meant that you could have say 10 cars in a class, at the same event, but running to 3 different sets of
championship regs.
Made a total mess of it as you had no idea who had finished where championship wise.
Likewise you could go to an event in literally the next county and have to change wheels / tyres and swap from a full screen to an aero one..
But they'll always be winners and losers in that sort of scenario, definatly a case of it being impossible to please everybody.
Though 1 thought: -
Why isn't your championship organiser sorting something out for you?
The MSA catagories are mandatory, but classes within them are free - so a class to suit 'Road legal Modsports' should be do-able with
perhaps a small amount of safety kit upgrade for example?
Perhaps worth discussing with them?
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StevieB
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 06:17 PM |
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My local club (Auto66) has introduced BEC class for both Road going and modified classes.
To me, this keeps the cost of prepping a car down - I can now buid and enter a BEC with no need for registration, reverse gear, lights, or any of the
other crap that's required for a road going car.
To that end, my car would have cost me £2,000 less to build. Or, alternatively, I could have had £2k worth of bits that would make a difference
(electronic paddle shift, lightweight brakes, lightweight wheels etc.)
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 12/2/10 at 10:01 PM |
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OK, I'm absolutely overjoyed about this clarification. It's removed a lot of hassle, one helluva lot. Let me digress....
I run a 'Modifed' BEC 7 (used to be in 'road legal', but that's a digression further). Last year, it was fine to run
that car virtually everywhere, with care and keeping a low profile, with 2 exceptions. At those 2 venues, I faced disqualification for having no
reverse. I therefore fitted a reverse, an electric arrangement that introduced a (buzz-saw dangerous) cog and vibration at the rear. I'd already
had a very bad accident at Combe where my mechanical reverse gearbox exploded leaving Quarry, hence the electric... anyway, whatever.
My competitors at some other venues (not only just the 2 mentioned) would often protest about the lack of reverse. Stressful.
Some interpretations were placed by some Officials that the wording for reverse ' must remain operable' wasn't a requirement for it
being there... anyway, it was a mess. Best place was Scotland where no one cared, not a jot, great place, great people.
All this has now been clarified, I don't need a reverse on slicks.
If I put the road tyres back on the car for a road legal class, then the electric motor goes back in as well. Simple. I am relaxed.
As for that Imp, well, it's irrelevant. When I put the Blade engine in the Clan (not in the rear, longitudinally in the passenger area, in my
mind a tad more balanced!), it was Sports Libre. Period. No reverse required.
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