pdm
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| posted on 22/1/11 at 08:40 PM |
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AJV6 - question re running it aftermarket
Hi
I've got a few questions about running aftermarket ECUs please - I don't know too much about this so please bear with me.
The Jag version of the V6 duratec - 3.0 AJV6 - has VICS secondary butterflies controlled by ECU and CVVT which I think is controlled by a solenoid
pumping oil at high pressure to advance or retard the intake cam ( does it do exhaust as well ?) dependent on load. As far as I can see it's
really the CVVT which sets it apart from the 2.5 ST24/ST200 and gives the engine the boost upto 240 brake.
I think a lot of ECU's can handle VTEC where there is one rpm point to alter the cam but there doesn't seem to be many which can handle
CVVT. Not sure about VICS.
Hypotheticaly speaking if you were to fit throttle bodies, I'm assuming you get over the need to run VICS as you'd ditch the standard
inlet manifold.
How about CVVT - can you remove the solenoid ? Presumably you'd rob the engine of power doing this ?
I thought the point of an aftermarket ECU was to able to control the timing and duration of fuelling and timing of the spark. If you removed the
CVVT parts and therefore lost the ability to control valve timing could you then get the power back by moving the spark timing about ? Or is it not
as simple as that ?
I guess the real question is whether the Ford version without the fancy cam timing and butterflies could be taken to the same sort of power by
chucking some throttle bodies at it and a good aftermarket ECU tune ? (I know I'd need a jag sump to be able to mate it to the jag gearbox as
per an earlier thread on here).
Or is a AJV6 which points the right way already for RWD, comes with a gearbox and is quite high powered a better bet even with the ECU problems ?
Thanks
Paul
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Chippy
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| posted on 22/1/11 at 11:23 PM |
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I think that you would need to contact a few of the major aftermarket ECU makers to get the answers to your question.
I would check out if the standard Jag ECU can be reprogramed first I think, some makes can, some can't, but either way if the engine makes 240
BHP with the Jag one then I would go with that. IMHO Ray
To make a car go faster, just add lightness. Colin Chapman - OR - fit a bigger engine. Chippy
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CNHSS1
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| posted on 23/1/11 at 10:24 AM |
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i got chatting to one of the techies on the Powertrain Ltd stand at the autosports show. They are the official supplier o Ford OEM engines to
aftermarket manufacturers such as Morgan, Noble etc.
They had the latest US variant of the Duratec V6 on their stand which is 3.7L. He explained that they had been supplying Ginetta with the Dura Vs for
their G50 championship for a few years and started with 3L, then more recently the 3.5L US version and new for 2011 the 3.7L.
He was quick to point out that the engines are totally stock, save for Ginettas own spec dry sump system, but all the other gubbins are Ford OEM. He
said that once they had a decent exhaust system and decent ECU, that released the extra power over stock. from memory the 3.5L version was rated at
260bhp from the factory, but ran at 300 in the Ginettas.
Powertrain mix and match some of the induction parts to produce the ginetta spec motor (plastic inlet manifold)
be worth a call i reckon
"Racing is life, everything else, before or after, is just waiting"---Steve McQueen
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interestedparty
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| posted on 23/1/11 at 12:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pdm
Hi
I've got a few questions about running aftermarket ECUs please - I don't know too much about this so please bear with me.
The Jag version of the V6 duratec - 3.0 AJV6 - has VICS secondary butterflies controlled by ECU and CVVT which I think is controlled by a solenoid
pumping oil at high pressure to advance or retard the intake cam ( does it do exhaust as well ?) dependent on load. As far as I can see it's
really the CVVT which sets it apart from the 2.5 ST24/ST200 and gives the engine the boost upto 240 brake.
I think a lot of ECU's can handle VTEC where there is one rpm point to alter the cam but there doesn't seem to be many which can handle
CVVT. Not sure about VICS.
Hypotheticaly speaking if you were to fit throttle bodies, I'm assuming you get over the need to run VICS as you'd ditch the standard
inlet manifold.
How about CVVT - can you remove the solenoid ? Presumably you'd rob the engine of power doing this ?
I thought the point of an aftermarket ECU was to able to control the timing and duration of fuelling and timing of the spark. If you removed the
CVVT parts and therefore lost the ability to control valve timing could you then get the power back by moving the spark timing about ? Or is it not
as simple as that ?
I guess the real question is whether the Ford version without the fancy cam timing and butterflies could be taken to the same sort of power by
chucking some throttle bodies at it and a good aftermarket ECU tune ? (I know I'd need a jag sump to be able to mate it to the jag gearbox as
per an earlier thread on here).
Or is a AJV6 which points the right way already for RWD, comes with a gearbox and is quite high powered a better bet even with the ECU problems ?
Thanks
Paul
I may be wrong, but tI thought the idea of the variable cam timing was not so much as to get more power at the top end, but to be more usable lower
down. In other words, I think the Jag engine is designed to be more powerful from the start, and the other stuff just makes it usable at lower
revs.There will be a position at which the most power is produced, and if that is your main concern (as in a light sportscar it may well be) then why
not fix the cam in the high power position if the ECU doesn't provide for it.
I would think your best bet would be to ring Emerald, I know their ECU does variable cam timing, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Omex did
too.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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PSpirine
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| posted on 23/1/11 at 01:01 PM |
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interestedparty is right, you can lock it without affecting top end power, but you will lose noticeable low-end torque and fuel economy (if that
bothers you).
I'm not familiar with the specific details of the cam timing system of this particular engine (even though I work for them!) but I imagine
it's possible to lock it. There are ways to lockout (or convert from) VANOS on BMW's, but again, I don't know how comparable the
system is to the AJV6.
On an off-point, is the Duratec V6 not the same as the Mazda V6 (KL-DE/ZE)? If so you can get them very cheap without any weird cam timing gubbins
etc. Yes, they'll make a smidge under 200hp as stock, but I understand they're very easy to tune for more (particularly if you're
not worrying about all the extra control systems).
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RazMan
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| posted on 23/1/11 at 02:37 PM |
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If you want to know if the Duratec V6 responds well to throttle bodies, watch this space 
I havent got it on the dyno yet but I am hoping to get around 230 bhp from my homebrew setup. I have just got to sort out the air filters but initial
impressions are pretty good. A simple exhaust & induction swap make a hell of a difference and I was seeing 200bhp with a good map.
The Jag version has a different head and combustion chamber AFAIK but the secondary butterflies spread the torque downwards in the rev range - I
initially removed my secondaries as they were a pain to map and a light car doesn't need the lower torque anyway.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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pdm
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| posted on 23/1/11 at 05:44 PM |
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Thanks everyone - KLZE is another option yes although i think its the generatioh before, i think their "duratec" is the mzr but the jag
gives me engine, flywheel, clutch and cogs
powertrain sound worth investigating certainly
razman - i've been casting an eye over your related posts for a while
thanks again
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