pekwah1
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:00 AM |
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Saab b204 engine
Hi Guys,
I've been toying with the idea of upgrading to a Saab b204 engine.
I'll be looking at a turbo model, so the e or the r, but just wanted to know what you guys think of them....
i know it's a bit of a heavy engine (150kgs?), but from what i've read, they're pretty indestructible, and also very very easy to
tune up to big power as they have pretty strong internals as standard.
The bellhousing to type 9 seems readily available which is good, but other than the fact that it's massively heavy, are there any other
drawbacks that i should be aware of?
Regards,
ANdy
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ashg
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:12 AM |
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With an all Ali omega box all up its 14kg less than a pinto and type 9. Can't see any downside other than its a lot lot lot lot more work to fit
than a zetec etc. My views may be available little biased as I have a b204 in my car.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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pekwah1
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:14 AM |
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why is it a lot lot lot lot lot more work?
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ashg
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:14 AM |
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Just thought about it and realised you have a striker. It's a very tight fit in my car and a striker is a lot smaller.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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pekwah1
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:15 AM |
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the striker is small, but the engine bay is suprisingly spacious so not sure it would be an issue.....
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ashg
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:26 AM |
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Because all the cooling outlets are in poor places compared to a zetec etc. Plus you will need to route all the boost pipework, not to mention find a
way to mount an intercooler/charge cooler. You need to modify the waterpump and belt system, chop the sump, mount an oil cooler, fab custom engine
mounts that require compound cuts due to the weird bolt hole layout on the block, fabricate a new alt bracket as the saab one fouls on the steering
shaft. The list goes on and on
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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ashg
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:31 AM |
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If you really want to go for it you are welcome to have a measure up of mine. I work in crawley will drive it in to work one afternoon if you want.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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pekwah1
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:32 AM |
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that could be good, although i work in guildford but sure i could sort something out....
i'll give you a shout at some point.... much appreciated!
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flibble
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 09:53 AM |
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Also have the b204 in mine and she is a big and tall lump! I'll give any help I can, although looking at ashg's install it's much
neater than mine so I'd ask him first, lol!
I've used an original ecu and ash has used megasquirt,any idea which you'd prefer?
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ashg
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 10:01 AM |
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forgot to add here are some pictures of the install. its 99.9% complete now will have to upload some more pictures when i get chance
http://s707.photobucket.com/albums/ww75/ashgardiner/Engine%20upgrade/
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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GRRR
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 10:31 AM |
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Hi,
Check out Zero Build Blog for my Saab 204L build diary.
The Saab engine has been a pain due to having to relocate everything - in particular (and this is based on my build, may be different for others):
- the alternator needed relocating and a new method of aux belt tensioning made up,
- the sump needs shortening,
- the Saab 900 inlet manifold doesn't fit under a 7 bonnet so you need a 9000 manifold,
- you'll have to make new engine mounts for longitudinal mounting
- the 900 exhaust manifold puts the turbo in the way of new engine mounts so you need to turn the turbo round which means - now turbo water/oil feed
and drain tubes,
- you'll need a new oil cooler and pipework
The Omega gearbox bolts straight up, but make sure you get the matching prop, we found there are 2 different prop bolt pcds having just had a new prop
made up with the wrong one!
The 204L engine management is very good but takes some brainwork to strip out just the useful loom bits. Make sure you find a copy of the Saab WIS
(electronic workshop guides) as these contain everything you need to know to make it run.
Let me know if you need more info! This is my first kit so I have no reference but I'd say its a lot more work than fitting a zetec!
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PeterV
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 10:39 AM |
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Agree with all the abopve comments. Using that very same motor in my WLR. The build site shows what I needed to do. I have all the wiring diagrams
draw up and ready if you want them. The biggy is the engine height. the B204 is a tall narrow engine and will require a massive chop / dry sump set up
in the Striker.
My engine weight less DI unit, generator & power steering pump (which will remain off) 110KG (dry weight) With programmable power between 185 to
320BHP so there is no issue with power to weight. Never got around to checking what the weight was with gearbox on.
On the plus side is ease of mounting, those B204 castings had a variety of spare mounting holes, no idea why, but hey makes like easy for us. BHP/£ is
just unbeatable. B204 & B234 have been taken up to 500BHP and are still bullet proof. A complete 9000 car with 45K miles @ £395 is just silly
money for the potential. Masses of stuff around for these motors, spares, performance and software for tweaking.
On the down side. They are complex motors with their APC Turbo's, T5 Trionic ECU and ICE systems. Engine height with mad slopping sump. Exhaust
and water outlets are a tight fit too. The later compromises the mounting position, would be nice to get the engine further back in the chassis and
have a bigger bore exhaust. Tyre, diff & box shredding toque is a killer 260Nm @ around 220BHP.
But being a SAAB fan (3 of them at the ranch now) I just could not resist all those lovely lovely ponies 
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kip
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 12:10 PM |
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Not sure about fitting one to a seven type car, but i can give some all round info.
The best engines are the B204x and the B234x ones. where the first one is the 2 litre version and the other is the 2.3 litre version.
The 2 litre ones are found in Saab 9000's, 900's and the 9-3 till 1999. The 2.3 litre ones are only found in the 9000's.
What's special about these engines is that they have forged internals, and the trionic 5 ecu system is 99% programmable. Some very smart people
reversed engineered it and made lovely software to map it. And by good software i mean software that that is better than most commercial options out
there.
http://trionic.mobixs.eu/
There's also a great forum to help you:
http://forum.ecuproject.com/
If you want to sure different injectors or an after market turbo this is a good place to start.
With a laptop and a wideband it's possible to let the software auto fill the fueling maps, with the knock detection of the DI unit this makes
the stock software even better than megasquirt for a saab engine in my opinion.
The later generation of engine, the Trionic 7 ones (B205x, B235x) have several main parts made of aluminum. If you want to get more than 300 HP out of
it you're looking at changing the internals to aftermarkt forged parts or B234/B204 parts. These "bad engines" are found in Saab
9-5's and 9-3's.
You'll notice that there's a trailing letter to the engine code. The engines are basically the same but use different software
mappings.
B204L = low pressure turbo, garrett T25 154BHP
B204L = full pressure turbo, the same garrett T25 with the ECU requesting more boost. 185BHP
B204R = even more turbo boost, same garrett T25. 205BHP
B235E = low pressure turbo, garrett T25 170 BHP
B235L = full pressure turbo, the same garrett T25 with the ECU requesting more boost. 200BHP
B235R, the Saab 9000 aero engine, a mitsubishi TD04-15T, or TD05-15G with earlier models. This is a bigger turbo where the turbo works in a higher rev
range. 225HP
It's typical to tune the garrett versions to stage 1, which is around 220 BHP, stage 3 which is around 265 HP is really pushing the little
turbos but seems pretty common too. For this a 3inch downpipe is needed.
The Mitsubishi turbo can handle 265+ BHP a lot better.
The stock exhaust manifolds suits both the turbos above. The first turbo saab 9000s used a T3 turbo mount, this opens up lots of turbos.
Popular high power options are the Holset HX35 and HX40, plus the Garrett GT25 and GT30.
An example of a 650BHP saab: http://www.stcf.net/Tribute_2x4.pdf
This is a lot more work.
As for gearboxes, many say the Omega box can't handle that much power/torque. No idea myself.
Other options i've seen
A BMW gearbox:
http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=45804
A jaguar gearbox:
http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54185
_____
STM Locoblade
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Dan.
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 07:03 PM |
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A friends Saab 7 build thread here might be of some use to you, thread is due an update as he is now working on the bodywork
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=143347
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PeterV
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| posted on 19/3/11 at 08:58 PM |
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A note on the B205 / B235 engines. They can suffer from compression blow through into the sump causing nasty build up of smeg and early failure
especially when in heavy tune. Best to avoid if you plan on anything but standard to mild tune.
The 2.3 engines are a longer stroke and although can make more power they feel lazy and less fun than the 2.0. The 2.3 torque would be
'interesting' in a light weight, small wheel kit car, it would be a hard job to keep legal rubber on the rims without some serious T5
programming and exhaust work.
The GM R28 mates perfectly and the boxes will take the torque in a kit because the tyres light up before the gearbox knows what's happened.
Don't try this box in a heavy production car through coz it will become a collectors item, i.e. you collecting the bits off the road. Avoid
anything from the GM "mate and go range" apart from the R28 gearbox, the rest will not play nice.
Apart from getting the rubber to stick, in a kit the biggest prob will be the torque trying to twist the chassis. Full chat coming out of hair pins
could be a laugh if the chassis thats not up to it
As kip says uksaabs.co.uk or saabscene.com are both full of happy chaps who know thier stuff.
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