greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 11:34 AM |
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ECU 'locked' by rolling road - ethical/legal?
out of curiuosity has anyone heard of a rolling road company locking/password protecting the ECU, and not giving the car owner the code? Just had a
call from a pal who had a new Omex ECU fitted and then mapped by a RR specialist ( quite well known )....he'd had a few issues with the engine
and decided that it needed tweaking. Took it to another RRoad that is far more local only for them to find that the other compnay had password
protected the ECU which meant that the map wasn't accessible. And yes he did call the original compnay asking for the code and was told that he
couldn't have it.
In other fields that wouldn't exist - a developer might come and do a couple of hours work to help set up a database for example, but clealry he
wouldnt password protect it to his advantage.....
so i wondered if anyone else had ever heard of this type of practice? my own car has been mapped at 2 different places with no issues, so have other
Lowcosters experinced anything similar?
Obviously if someone is told - ' oh and by the way this map will be locked and you will only ever be able to bring the car back here for a
remap' - then fair enough, but i can't imagine that many folks would take up such a draconian offer!
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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bilbo
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 11:47 AM |
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I would say that's highly unethical!
Not sure about legalities? I suppose you could argue it's technically theft as they have stolen part of it's functionality, or that they
have wilfully partly broken it when in their possession.
If I were your pal, I'd write a polite, but firm letter to this company (what ever he does, don't rant at them), requesting the password
as it his property and they have effectively broken it. If they don't comply, sent them an invoice for a new ECU, threatening to go to press
(car tuning mags?) or with legal action.
It's probably also worth talking to OMEX as they may have ways of unlocking them.
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Build Diary: http://bills-locost.blogspot.com/
Web Site: http://locost.atspace.com
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jossey
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 11:51 AM |
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ive come accross this with EVO's as the tuner wants to protect their work. most ECU places can unlock it but it loses the data on the mapping.
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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will121
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 11:51 AM |
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i would speak to Omex direct as they seem very helpfull and i thought open with their software to see if there is a 'administration' type
code that could be used to get around the RR restricted access one they have applied
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scootz
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 11:52 AM |
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Can it still be mapped 'from scratch'? I.e. is it just the previous RR map that can't be accessed?
It's Evolution Baby!
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bilbo
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Can it still be mapped 'from scratch'? I.e. is it just the previous RR map that can't be accessed?
Ah, good point. If it's just the particular map that's locked out, not the whole mapping function of the ECU, then it's not maybe as
bad - still a bit sh*tty though.
I work in IT. I can go to reasonable lengths to protect my code from being copied, edited etc, but I would never, ever dream of changing a customers
passwords and refusing to tell them what they are.
Having said that, if I write something custom, specific to that customer, I think it's reasonable to give them the source code.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by bilbo]
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Build Diary: http://bills-locost.blogspot.com/
Web Site: http://locost.atspace.com
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greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:04 PM |
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Omex - believe it or not they cant help - although they were helpful in not being able to help if you know what i mean ( i called them on his behalf
as he was sitting at the other RRoad place )....there is no overide code that they have.
I believe that it can be remapped from scratch, but there's the rub. Dont know about you folks, but my own maps were very good but after a while
i decided that i needed a tweak as a tiny flat spot became evident after driving the car for a while....
so in the case above would i be happy paying £xxx hundred to have it mapped,and then have to throw away that info to start all over again - when in
reality it just needs a quick tweak!
Have to say that it seems a highly dubious business practice, especially as the map is of little use to anyone else ( reworked head/cams etc).
No doubt he will write a polite letter, and it'll be interesting to see what teh response is....of course meantime he's wasted a booked
slot at anoher RR and taken time off during a working day to get it there. It's weird as i'd heard good things about this company in
general.
Bilbo. IT is a great example. If i employed a developer to pop into my office to help set up a database for a few hours i wouldnt expect him to walk
away with the one bit of knowledge that ties me into him, i've employed him to do a specific task - for my ongoing benefit.
On the other hand if i subscribe to an IT service ( ie/ a downloadable Database that i use i would expect / respect that fact that i have now
ownership or rights to that product).
[Edited on 1/9/11 by greenwood03]
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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Alfa145
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:09 PM |
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Name and shame please as I wouldn't want to get caught out by this draconian practice..... at least if people are forewarned they can ask for it
not to be done
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bilbo
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by greenwood03
Omex - believe it or not they cant help - although they were helpful in not being able to help if you know what i mean ( i called them on his behalf
as he was sitting at the other RRoad place )....there is no overide code that they have.
I believe that it can be remapped from scratch, but there's the rub. Dont know about you folks, but my own maps were very good but after a while
i decided that i needed a tweak as a tiny flat spot became evident after driving the car for a while....
so in the case above would i be happy paying £xxx hundred to have it mapped,and then have to throw away that info to start all over again - when in
reality it just needs a quick tweak!
Have to say that it seems a highly dubious business practice, especially as the map is of little use to anyone else ( reworked head/cams etc).
No doubt he will write a polite letter, and it'll be interesting to see what teh response is....of course meantime he's wasted a booked
slot at anoher RR and taken time off during a working day to get it there. It's weird as i'd heard good things about this company in
general.
If all they did is tweak an existing map that he had already written, then they have no right to lock him out - it's mainly his work!
Going back to the IT analogy, if a customer has written something and then ask me to tweak it, I'd be shot if I then kept the source code and
wouldn't give it back.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by bilbo]
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Build Diary: http://bills-locost.blogspot.com/
Web Site: http://locost.atspace.com
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Irony
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:20 PM |
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I work for a company designing exhibitions and when I send a design to a client I am well aware that they can take the design to another company and
say 'build this'. I have even seen people using my work and calling it there own. It happens all the time. When you work in design you
must be aware that your stuff will be ripped off wether its a chair or a ECU map. It happens.
In my opinion the RR company are utterly in the wrong. If I paid a for a artist to paint a picture and then after a month I decided it needed a hat
on the picture I would just paint it on with a 3 inch brush. Thats up to me.
If it was me I would write politely to the company ask for the codes. If I was still refused I might think of taking it further. Shame there are not
any copyright specialists on here
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atspeed racing
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:29 PM |
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To clarify:
It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.
The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.
The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.
This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g.
ginetta championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.
Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.
Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin
for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.
hope that helps
colin.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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RK
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:37 PM |
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That is a strange way to be, in my opinion. One is paid for work. Work is done. What is the problem? The ECU belongs to the owner of the car, and the
map is part of that; ie. I am paid to install a water pump. I don't lock it on so nobody but me can have access to the inlet, or change the pump
in any way once installed. Graphic artists, as mentioned, have dealt with this for years.
That said, you have to run your business how you see fit, and proceed accordingly. You also have to accept that it may cost business in the long run.
It sounds like Microsoft business practices, which have been, shall we say "widely criticised".
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richardh
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:43 PM |
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name and shame - save us all loads of grief
Time for a change!
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mrwibble
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by atspeed racing
To clarify:
It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.
The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.
The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.
This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g.
ginetta championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.
Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.
Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin
for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.
hope that helps
colin.
i think thats rather lame set of excuses, clearly protectionist, if you bolt on a set of jenveys for client, you don't use bolts that only you
can undo. if a client has paid for an ecu map, you'd expect the map to be their property. :. i won't be using your services.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:47 PM |
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While the mapper is paid for their work, that work can be re-sold to someone with a similar engine arrangement - it's a bit like software
copyright. The solution is to use an ECU that doesn't allow it.
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swanny
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 12:56 PM |
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i work at a University and the issue of IP crops up fairly often for us. mostly who owns the IP is driven by who pays for the work. so if you get 50%
funding for a project you get 50% of IP rights to the outcome, but if you pay 100% you get everything.
(this is all foreground IP; new stuff generated under the project. background IP is usually excluded as its all the previous know how we have that
allows us to do the project in the first place)
i think the company could argue that they install you the map to use and you pay them for that map which you can then use.
what they dont do (it seems in this case) is sell you access to the code to develop their products further. which from my perspective seems ok, but i
can see clearly how annoying this is if you dont know thats what you're paying for.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by swanny]
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T66
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:05 PM |
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I understand mappers may want to protect their time & files from file theft - But if they are locking it down to prevent copying of the file then
fair enough, but not the ecu as thats not theirs.
Its probably of more use here to know who it is , so we can avoid the same problem.
This is a debate seen often on the ecu forums, some are happy to share while others say nowt.
Its a people thing, not anything to do with engine mapping. Stick a line on the DTA forum for base maps , you will get a zero response, maybe even an
arsy reply.
Likewise the ecuproject, it all gets a bit touchy when it comes to sharing, which I understand but thats not where I sit.
Anyone got a base map for a Rotrex Blackbird engine then ?
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Eatpies99
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jossey
ive come accross this with EVO's as the tuner wants to protect their work. most ECU places can unlock it but it loses the data on the mapping.
Yup the map on my Motec on the Evo was password protected. Bit annoying really as it couldnt be "tweaked" if i changed any minor bits on
the car (without going back to the original tuner obv).
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greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:17 PM |
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quote:
It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.
The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.
The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.
This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g. ginetta
championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.
Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.
Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin
for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.
well i wasn't actually going to name the company involved, it was more a case of checking with others to find out if they've ever heard of
such a practice...but as ATS have responded........
OK i can accept that in a race series ECU's might have to be locked....that's fair enough and irrelevant to this situation, the car is a
road car.
I can also accept / understand that if someone buys a retuned 'chip' for say a Cosworth then the data on that map is teh property of the
mapper and the buyer is merely perhaps a 'registered/authorized user. But in that case the cost of that transaction is simple and clear. Whereas
surely a customer has paid a mapper for his time and expertise and that knowledge / expertise should surely become the property of the buyer?????
So out of interest do you enter into a formal contractual agreement with the buyer of your services? Do they sign a clear waiver / statement that
attests to the fact that they are handing over money in return for something that can only ever be accessed and amended by your company?
And in regard to one of the other comments above, IF someone has a bog standard engine that is exactly teh same as a.n.others then of course
'piracy' could happen. But that surely isn't feasible with many 'kits' that have subtle differences..
Anyway, that 'argument' is a bit of a tangent....
the issue here is:
is this common practice amongst tuners/mappers who are paid on te usual hourly basis.
do such companies make their terms of business crystal clear ( locking the map etc ).
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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contaminated
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by atspeed racing
To clarify:
It is the map that is password protected. not the ecu.
The ecu can still be accessed, and re tuned by the new tuner, or owner, with a new file.
The password protected map cannot be altered or accessed without the password.
This is in place for example, to safeguard against tampering. Or in championships where ecu maps must be controlled by the governing body e.g.
ginetta championship etc. all must run same ecu, same map, serial coded to the car, etc.
Generally, you pay for the engine/ecu to be mapped. The file is property of the mapper.
Some makes of ECUs have passwords only issued to dealers or recommended tuners, and also passwords for different levels of access... like user/admin
for example. may reveal more or less options dependant on granted user access level.
hope that helps
colin.
Personally I think this a poor excuse. Is the goal here not just to ensure repeat business and/or mess it up for anyone else mapping the car? I
appreciate that a lot of work goes into providing a map, but unless I'm missing something you do in fact charge for that service! If you
supplied me a map and didn't charge me I'd be happy to have you lock it. If I pay for it however it's mine surely?
The other point is that even on two very similar cars the maps will be different. The chances of lifting a map of a car and it working perfectly on
another are remote I would say.
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scudderfish
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:23 PM |
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Makes me glad I've got a megasquirt!
I'm pretty sure this would fall under the computer misuse act as you asked them to tune your car, not lock you out of functionality of your
computer (which is what an ECU is after all). Ask for a copy of the document you signed where you explicitly agreed to them doing this.
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:25 PM |
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I don't see a problem with either approach, but the customer should be made aware of what they are and aren't buying before the service is
provided.
When you buy a piece of software for your PC (say MS Word), you don't expect to get the source code so you can tweak it do you? You just get the
functionality provided by that software. Same with ECU mapping, if you are just buying the functionality of a working car, you don't own the
source code. If on the other hand you are paying them to write YOU a map, you do own it. It all depends what service you are buying and that needs to
be made clear in advance.
It's not illegal or unethical, but given that's it's not standard practice in this industry, they should really make it clear before
starting, and potentially offer an alternative option where the customer takes posession of the IP at extra cost.
[Edited on 1/9/11 by matt_claydon]
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hughpinder
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:27 PM |
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I can see the point of locking access if its for a race series that specifies it must be.
If I was taking the car to them for a 'normal' tune, I would expect to be told in advance that the map would be locked, so that I could
choose to go elsewhere. After all the nature of kit cars is that you do tweak them every now and again.
Regards
Hugh
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greenwood03
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:37 PM |
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Matt, i agree entirely.
IF a service provider makes their terms clear then that's understandable - the buyer can then make an informed decision to go ahead or not -
with the knowledge that in this case he'll never be able to do aything to that map without taking it back to the provider.
However, in the specific instance of mapping if you have a new ECU installed and then ask the company to map it i'd have thought that you are
indeed asking them to build YOU a custom map that works to the best of their abilities with your engine.
Which to my mind is different to having an ECU fitted and then asking them to pop an 'off the shelf' map on which is a generic map that
they hold the rights to 9 and which obviously would cost substantially less ( one would assume ) to purchase.
Certainly if i'm in the position of paying someone teh best part of £100 an hour and getting a bill at the end for £3-400 i'd expect (
unless forwarned ) that the map is mine to do with as i'd like.
I wonder how many folks who read this thread will be asking a few extra questions next time they approach a mapping company.
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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ChrisW
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| posted on 1/9/11 at 01:43 PM |
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My opinion on this, based on experience I have with writing software for people (which is essentially the same thing), is that there are two
scenarios:
1. The client pays for a finished product at a set price. If I have to write this for them the final price is agreed in advance. This comes with an
agreed level of support for any bugs, but any additional tweaking from the original spec is additional work and chargeable. If they want a second
copy they pay again. This is is how most (big) software companies work - I'm talking Microsoft, Adobe, etc.
2. The client pays me to write something for them and they'll get an estimate of hours based on their spec. If it takes less time they pay
less, if it takes longer they pay more. They may well have to provide hardware for development. This is generally for custom written stuff that is
sold for a specific purpose to a specific customer. The entire source code is provided so they can modify (or use another person to modify) as they
wish, and pass on to whoever would need it, but in general the audience is few and far between.
IMHO the kind of mapping performed on a rolling road falls into catagory two, unless you agreed a fixed price for a 'map for an XYZ
car'.
However, the kind of remapping I do with GX Tuning is catagory 1, as it's sold at a fixed price for a fixed application and doesn't
require the car to go on a rolling road.
Chris
[Edited on 1/9/2011 by ChrisW]
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