stevegough
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 posted on 4/9/11 at 07:08 PM |
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Close up pics of main bearings C20XE
OK, getting close to pulling my hair out with this problem.......
......following on from...THIS thread......
I have dropped the sump, and have taken out the no.2 main bearing cap as suggested by fellow LCBs (franky, perksy and laptopprob)...
.....I am no engineer, mechanic, etc, but to my untrained eye, the bearing doesn't look at all worn.
What would you say? - also, just a quick question.....when I refit it ( it only fits one way round) am I supposed to use new bolts? - 'cause I
haven't got any!
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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franky
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 07:18 PM |
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can you feel anything with your fingernail when you drag it across?
It looks ok from here although its hard to tell, you can see in the pic of mine one thats perfect against ones that are worn.
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mookaloid
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 07:22 PM |
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They look a bit less than new to me. they look scored? what does the crank look like?
Bear in mind that the bearing surface and the crank journal shouldn't actually touch - so they might be of concern to me.
you can check them using plastigauge linky which you can buy off ebay i think.
cheers
Mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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stevegough
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 07:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
can you feel anything with your fingernail when you drag it across?
It looks ok from here although its hard to tell, you can see in the pic of mine one thats perfect against ones that are worn.
yes, there's a deep channel in the middle but, no, its as smooth as a boobies skin!
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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ashg
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 07:38 PM |
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look like they are worn to me. stop touching them and measure them and the crank with a micrometer. any pictures of the crank?
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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stevegough
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 07:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
They look a bit less than new to me. they look scored? what does the crank look like?
Bear in mind that the bearing surface and the crank journal shouldn't actually touch - so they might be of concern to me.
you can check them using plastigauge linky which you can buy off ebay i think.
cheers
Mark
Thanks for your comments, Mark (nice avatar, btw). Did you read the reasons for the bearing cap removal, though? - I have a problem with building up
initial oil pressure, I was expecting to see a vast amount of wear - similar to franky's picture?
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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stevegough
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 07:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ashg
look like they are worn to me. stop touching them and measure them and the crank with a micrometer. any pictures of the crank?
Crank is dripping with oil, but I'll wipe it and photograph it - I don't have a micrometer, but the oil feed channel is just a touch over
1mm deep at either end. Pic to follow in 10 mins...
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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ashg
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 07:56 PM |
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you really need to get hold of a micrometer to see if its in spec or not. machine mart sell them for under £20
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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stevegough
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 08:00 PM |
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pics of crank - not easy to photograph - dark and dripping!
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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Wheels244
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 08:23 PM |
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Why not replace all the shells ?
You've got the sump off so have done all the hard work.
They don't cost that much and it's one thing you could cross off
your list of potential faults.
Crank looks ok from the photos, but I would measure it if you can
get hold of a set of micrometres.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 4/9/11 at 08:33 PM |
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They don't look too bad to me, but some plastigauge would let you know for sure. The fact that it does eventually produce decent oil pressure
tends to imply that the bottom end can't be in that bad a state.
The bypass valve can be problematic on these engines; I know you have set this up previously but have you taken it out since? It only takes a tiny
bit of swarf etc. to jam the valve open, so that would be my first port of call.
If not this then an air leak on the inlet side could cause priming issues. If you are certain the pick-up pipe is ok in all respects then maybe you
need to take a closer look at the pump, and especially the mounting faces and gasket.
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stevegough
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| posted on 5/9/11 at 07:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
They don't look too bad to me, but some plastigauge would let you know for sure. The fact that it does eventually produce decent oil pressure
tends to imply that the bottom end can't be in that bad a state.
The bypass valve can be problematic on these engines; I know you have set this up previously but have you taken it out since? It only takes a tiny
bit of swarf etc. to jam the valve open, so that would be my first port of call.
If not this then an air leak on the inlet side could cause priming issues. If you are certain the pick-up pipe is ok in all respects then maybe you
need to take a closer look at the pump, and especially the mounting faces and gasket.
That's put my exact thoughts at this moment in a nutshell. If I replace all the shells, it means dropping the entire crank which means removing
the gearbox, and hence the engine - loads of work for possibly nil gain. However, I am now even more convinced that the oil pressure fault lies
within the oil pump, or, as you say - possibly even the pressure relief valve sticking again. The oil pump has to be removed first to drop the crank
in any case.
There is a minisule score on one end of that shell, maybe 1/4mm wide and 1cm long, other than that and a couple of handling marks (from when
it was hamfistedly fitted, possibly) it is pristine - I don't believe they are the fault.
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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franky
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| posted on 5/9/11 at 08:56 AM |
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Good news then 
You should be able to slide the other half of the bearing around to replace while the crank is still on(if you want to!).
Have you had the oil pump apart to check for wear in there? Or would it be worth trying a new pump and putting it back together to see?
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stevegough
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| posted on 5/9/11 at 09:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
Good news then
You should be able to slide the other half of the bearing around to replace while the crank is still on(if you want to!).
Have you had the oil pump apart to check for wear in there? Or would it be worth trying a new pump and putting it back together to see?
Not replacing the bearings - its a bit above my skill-base (I think that's the contemorary term!) and I don't think they're worn.
Oil pump removal + strip / measure clearances is next, but It won't be until much later today.
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 5/9/11 at 09:25 AM |
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Am I missing something here, or have you checked the big ends as well.
In my limited experience, big ends seem to wear rather faster than mains. And if they are out I would definitely replace them if they show any signs
of wear.
BUT bearing wear usually means oil pressure drops when hot, and better when cold. I am a bit perplexed with this.
Did the problems start with teh new pressure valve was fitted, or did it make any difference?
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stevegough
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| posted on 6/9/11 at 09:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
Am I missing something here, or have you checked the big ends as well.
In my limited experience, big ends seem to wear rather faster than mains. And if they are out I would definitely replace them if they show any signs
of wear.
BUT bearing wear usually means oil pressure drops when hot, and better when cold. I am a bit perplexed with this.
Did the problems start with teh new pressure valve was fitted, or did it make any difference?
No, I'm not planning to investigate the big ends, I'm doing the oil pump first, I've now got it out and I'm cleaning it
thoroughly before opening it - I'm hoping to find something obvious in there. I will also strip out and clean that pressure relief - valve
port again.
The nil - oil pressure on start up may have started soon after fitting the valve, I honestly can't remember, but I DO remember that the oil
pressure was zero constantly before I fitted it (although I wasn't running and driving it then) - as soon as I replaced it with SBDs one, the
oil pressure was instantly there. - The current fault may well be down to that little blighter sticking again, even though it is supposed to be
non-stick.
Watch this space.
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 7/9/11 at 06:35 PM |
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Looks a little scored to me, any I've pulled that were not dead were pretty shiny still. Barring the slight scoring I'd say they looked
fairly healthy.
Checkout : http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf for help diagnosing plain bearings.
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stevegough
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| posted on 7/9/11 at 07:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Looks a little scored to me, any I've pulled that were not dead were pretty shiny still. Barring the slight scoring I'd say they looked
fairly healthy.
Checkout : http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf for help diagnosing plain bearings.
That's an extremely useful link, coyoteboy. Saved for future reference.
However, to bring the thread up to date I stripped the oil pump and it was quite well worn - the alloy casing where the gears revolve was badly
abraded and scored, there were also a couple of unspecified shards of metal embedded in these surfaces. In addition, as a couple of you have said,
the pressure relief valve was also stuck open with a few crumbs of metal - just goes to show that SBDs nylon valve can stick, too!
I could have made a reasonable oil pump out of the two I had, but I decided to get a new pump. (QED) - fitted it today, and when I've got
a new adaptor for the oil press sender (I sheared the one I had this afternoon - no idea how, I had only just put the spanner to it - virtually no
force at all!) I hopefully should finish it tomorrow. Oh! yes, one more thing - I've fitted a magnetic sump plug to scavenge any more little
shards...eBay - The UK's Online Marketplace
By the way, thanks for all the advice and help along the way, everybody.
Regards, Steve
[Edited on 7/9/11 by stevegough]
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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NS Dev
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| posted on 12/9/11 at 07:24 AM |
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was typing a big follow up and just lost it, so to summarise:
Mains on an XE, to all intents and purposes NEVER go wrong
Big ends, change every 90K (will go much longer but usually tired at this mileage)
Relief valves, NEVER, EVER WASTE money on a nylon one, they are utterly useless
Once a relief valve starts to stick, change the whole pump, they are never right once they've done it once (no, I don't know why! )
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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stevegough
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| posted on 13/9/11 at 02:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
was typing a big follow up and just lost it, so to summarise:
Mains on an XE, to all intents and purposes NEVER go wrong
Big ends, change every 90K (will go much longer but usually tired at this mileage)
Relief valves, NEVER, EVER WASTE money on a nylon one, they are utterly useless
Once a relief valve starts to stick, change the whole pump, they are never right once they've done it once (no, I don't know why! )
OK, thanks for your reply and pm, Nathaniel - you are a bit late, as I have already wasted my money on the SBD nylon one. I also cleaned it up and
refitted it to the new oil pump, even though it was a bit scored. I will now remove it and replace it with the new metal one which came with the oil
pump before I start driving the car again.
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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perksy
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| posted on 16/9/11 at 08:02 PM |
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Problem with the SBD nylon valve is any crud/dirt seems to embed itself into the nylon
Polishing up the standard XE valve seems to work ok but as you've got scoring in the pump body it needed replacing anyway
As said before the only way you'll know if you have a crank/bearing issue is to micrometer it first and then plastigauge the assembly
Big ends on the XE suffer more abuse than the mains which usually last quite well
I've seen worse bearing face/s than those in your photo and pulled some Big ends out of a zetec a couple of months ago that were in a terrible
state, but the oil pressure was fine, it was just knocking itself to death 
One thing i'd deffinatly do is make sure the inside of the sump is very clean before refitting it otherwise you'll be back to square one
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stevegough
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| posted on 16/9/11 at 08:52 PM |
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Thanks, perksy - that all makes sense there were bits embedded in the nylon, removing the valve took quite a bit of force, and I had to push it out
from inside - there's no way I could have pulled it out, it was stuck really fast - this caused even more scoring of the relief valve bore.
Anyway - I have replaced the pump, and now fitted the proper metal valve back in which came with the pump - and the engine is running a treat - even
hot it is only dropping to about 50 psi. (showing nearly 90 cold!).
Now moving on to planning winter mods - mostly repainting the wishbones which I probably should have got the same quality powder coating done on as I
did on the chassis!
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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perksy
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| posted on 16/9/11 at 09:30 PM |
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Good news 
Now you can get back out and enjoy it 
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stevegough
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| posted on 17/9/11 at 08:04 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by perksy
Good news
Now you can get back out and enjoy it
Certainly can....went for a quick thrash on thursday round the lanes near here, trouble is, some guy in a great fat CL 63 AMG was holding me
up......AND he was trying not to - don't you just love these cars on the twisty bits? 
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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