Benzo
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 10:40 AM |
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ST170 Duratec & Type 9 Sierra Combined Weight?
Hi guys,
Just wondering if you could tell me the Approx weight of a type 9 gearbox & a 2ltr Duratec?
Does around 130kg combined? assuming a from google a type 9 box weighs around 40kgs?
Iain
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big_wasa
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 10:58 AM |
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The st is tuned zetec with an iron block so it will be heavier than a proper duratec, I am guessing nearer 150kg
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Benzo
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 11:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
The st is tuned zetec with an iron block so it will be heavier than a proper duratec, I am guessing nearer 150kg
Really thats quite heavy!
So in a westifield chassis i would prob. struggle to get a full car to weigh in at less than 550kg's dry?
Is there a lighter gearbox option?
Assuming my old megablade was coming in at 465kg and the blade engine was 65kgs?
[Edited on 14/10/12 by Benzo]
[Edited on 14/10/12 by Benzo]
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big_wasa
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 11:21 AM |
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The zetec is around ~100kg dry I would expect the st to be a lttle more with the vvt.
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jeffw
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 11:32 AM |
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You can replace the main case on the Type 9 with an aluminium alloy one which saves considerable Kgs...
[Edited on 14/10/12 by jeffw]
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snapper
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 11:37 AM |
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Zetec 122Kg ancillaries and fluids
Type 9 with bell housing etc 45Kg
Alloy bellhousing saves 5Kg
Alloy type 9 case saves 5Kg
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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Benzo
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 12:27 PM |
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Ok so thanks for the weight information..
So.. how tuneable are these engines ST Duratec engines?
220-240hp possible running on carbs?
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jeffw
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 01:14 PM |
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Anything is possible with enough money. 240BHP on carbs will be expensive. Head/Valves/Valve Springs/Cams/pistons & rods to get close. Not sure
why you would want to use carbs though.
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snapper
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 02:24 PM |
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The big problem is controlling the variable cam timing
A proper Duratec would be easier or supercharge your Duratec badged Zetec
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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Benzo
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 04:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Anything is possible with enough money. 240BHP on carbs will be expensive. Head/Valves/Valve Springs/Cams/pistons & rods to get close. Not sure
why you would want to use carbs though.
I presume wiring would be more simple..? cheaper built?
quote:
Originally posted by snapper
The big problem is controlling the variable cam timing
A proper Duratec would be easier or supercharge your Duratec badged Zetec
Can you give me a run down on these duratecs? im new to them..
So the ST Duratec is really just a Zetec based engine?
Do the ST Duratec and Proper Duratec use the same mountings? bellhousing? exhaust system?
Thanks
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big_wasa
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 05:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzo So the ST Duratec is really just a Zetec based engine?
The st170 engine is a tuned up zetec with better rods and high comp pistons. The head has bigger ports but it also has vvt and dsi. both of these will
need ditching to up the power to anyware near what you are looking for.
The st150 is a proper duratec
quote:
Originally posted by Benzo Do the ST Duratec and Proper Duratec use the same mountings? bellhousing? exhaust system?
The proper duratec is a mazda engine so its totaly differant to any other ford engine. Its not a direct bolt on to a type 9 but the bits are
available. The inlet and exhaust are on opposite sides.
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Benzo
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| posted on 14/10/12 at 06:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
quote:
Originally posted by Benzo So the ST Duratec is really just a Zetec based engine?
The st170 engine is a tuned up zetec with better rods and high comp pistons. The head has bigger ports but it also has vvt and dsi. both of these will
need ditching to up the power to anyware near what you are looking for.
The st150 is a proper duratec
quote:
Originally posted by Benzo Do the ST Duratec and Proper Duratec use the same mountings? bellhousing? exhaust system?
The proper duratec is a mazda engine so its totaly differant to any other ford engine. Its not a direct bolt on to a type 9 but the bits are
available. The inlet and exhaust are on opposite sides.
Ok that would explain when ive googles duratec westfield they have been the other way around!
The car at the moment has a set of 'busa throttle bodies mounted on it.. is this a known route?
Sorry but i know more about the bike engined side of these cars!
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Jenko
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| posted on 16/10/12 at 12:04 PM |
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The zetec ST170 is a 2ltr Zetec with slightly modified head and valves, and also reportedly different pistons. It uses a solinoid to advance or retard
the cam timing and (I think), is either on or off. This means most ECUs can cope with it. it has nothing in common with the duratec engine found in
the fiesta ST 150.
MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/
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Benzo
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| posted on 16/10/12 at 03:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jenko
The zetec ST170 is a 2ltr Zetec with slightly modified head and valves, and also reportedly different pistons. It uses a solinoid to advance or retard
the cam timing and (I think), is either on or off. This means most ECUs can cope with it. it has nothing in common with the duratec engine found in
the fiesta ST 150.
Thanks for the information mate..
In terms of tuning the ST170 engine.. who has one fitted? does it respond well tuning?
I have ready that people remove the VVT using Cat cams? which makes it more manageable to Map?
Are there any tuners who specialise in these engines that i could pick their brains?
Iain
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Benzo
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| posted on 16/10/12 at 03:26 PM |
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Also i should add that the car i have is partially built, has the ST170 engine fitted, no wiring, busa throttle bodies & westfield exhaust..
Are the busa throttle bodies useable? or going to be a nightmare to set up?
or would a set of Jenvey bodies give more power and be easier setup?
[Edited on 16/10/12 by Benzo]
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jeffw
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| posted on 16/10/12 at 04:30 PM |
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Busa TBs v Jenvey
More peak power no....easier to set up & drive yes (by and large).
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Benzo
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| posted on 16/10/12 at 05:00 PM |
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Thanks for the input guys..
I will get the car home and start from there..
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greenwood03
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| posted on 16/10/12 at 07:53 PM |
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i seem to recall trawling the ford forums and the consensus seemed to be that the ST wasnt an easy engine to tune and that there were more options for
tuning a silvertop/btop......i think there were a few folks on here or other kit forums that had achieved 190-200 ish.
http://southernkitcars.comIntermarque Club for owners in the South/South East
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 18/10/12 at 01:06 AM |
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There is a thread on the VVT delete in this section.
The ST170 has been avoided by most due to the VVT and how it works. To use it correctly is needs a PMW closed loop control which will allow the cam
timing to be altered. Its a fully variable cam timing, not just on and off.
But to delete it and fit different profile cams is not cheap, £650 for exchange cams
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Jenko
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| posted on 18/10/12 at 07:16 AM |
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IIRC most tuners just use the Variable control as an on off, although as mentioned this was not the ford way of doing it. The system can simply
advance or retard the timing. I've heard that gains can be made from turning the the system on at much lower down the rev range than the
standard ford control......I remember reading this in on of Dave Walkers workshops in PPC.
They use the same trick on the Puma engine which has a similar system.
MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/
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snapper
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| posted on 18/10/12 at 07:43 AM |
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The basics.....
Zetec has inlets on the right, exhaust on the left
Duratec has inlet on the left and exhaust on the right
All Ford inline 4 cylinder engines upto and including the Zetec and its variants have the Ford bellhousing pattern that will mate with a Type9 or
MT75
The true Ford Duratec engine is infact a Mazda and uses Mazda bellhousing pattern.
My opinion
You won't seriously tune a Zetec of any sort over 200bhp without turbo or supercherger
There are issues with tuning the ST 170 due to VVT or trying to remove it
The true Duratec will make near 200 with a change of induction and make over 220 with a pair of cams that can be installed without even taking the
head off
It is prudent to do some real deep research when tuning any engine as so much is linked to other engineering issues
For instance the ST170 has oil issues when removing the VVT, high lift cams need the casting round the hydraulic lifters relieved
To get 220+ bhp you will need very high lift camshaft and more compression therfore forged pistons (ST may have these already) and deeper cut outs in
the pistons.
The list goes on
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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Jenko
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| posted on 18/10/12 at 07:56 AM |
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The only point I would dissagree with would be the power of a standard Duratec on throttle bodies....Most seem to chuck out around 175 - 180bhp. But
spot on wih the rest :-)
MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 18/10/12 at 06:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by snapper
For instance the ST170 has oil issues when removing the VVT, high lift cams need the casting round the hydraulic lifters relieved
Please explain. I've not heard of oil problems from the vvt delete.
The ST170 also has solid lifters. Fitting high lift cams is not a problem apart from having to reset and shim the followers.
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Benzo
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| posted on 22/10/12 at 10:10 AM |
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Decision has been made that i am going to pull the ST170 engine out and fit a Blacktop 2.0L..
And tune the 2L it seems a more proven route, does away with the VVT etc.
Im right in thinking that my engine mounts, exhaust, bell housing, inlet manifold / busa TB's etc will fit a blacktop engine?
How much should i pay for a used blacktop? how much do miles effect these engines?
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Jenko
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| posted on 22/10/12 at 10:21 AM |
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I think you can get a brand new black top for £750 - for that money, I think I would go for a new one...Try 'Kit car parts'
MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/
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