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Author: Subject: Aspiring builder saying "Hello!"
thom.milburn

posted on 13/4/15 at 09:44 PM Reply With Quote
Aspiring builder saying "Hello!"

Hi guys, just thought i'd pop up a post to say hello (I couldn't find an introductions page - there really should be one!).

Firstly - great site, i've spent the past hour reading posts and viewing pictures of some inspiring machines; and the best part is they're predominantly home built!

Anyway, i'm Thom - a young lad (just 24) with a real appetite for anything with wheels and engines. Currently my only vehicle is a Saab 9-3 Tid, and whilst it is reasonably fun it is somewhat uninspired (although it does have a whole lot of torque). I also ride, or i should say rode, bikes up until going to university and i do most of my own work on said vehicles (i can rarely justify paying a mechanic and would rather buy the tools with the money!).

Anyway, I'm beginning to toy with the idea of building a kit car, and whilst I am very new to the idea I have been toying with the idea of building a one-off vehicle for some time (normally with the idea centering around a mk2 scirocco with RWD and a 2.0litre turbo engine). HOWEVER, these kit cars seem very appealing - cheap(ish), completely unique and highly adaptable, so it looks like one of these will be my next big project. It would have been a defender, but those things are going for silly money at the moment!

So, the plans for the future build - i'm not really sure what I want yet, and i hope this forum will provide some inspiration.

I'm considering a twin bike engined build, but the complexities associated with reverse gear (I would prefer something more purposeful than a starter motor) and also taking drive from two engines is off putting. I also know bike engines do not necceserily like pulling heavy loads, and for this reason I feel going slightly slower and using a car as a donor may be a wise move.

For the above reason I am very much liking the idea of using a large BMW engine, something like the 740i, or perhaps a straight six. But that won't be enough of a project and so i'm intending to turbocharge whatever it is i end up with.

So - there's a very brief introduction to the mayhem that is my imagination, and i very much hope you guys can bring some order to the chaos. I have little idea which chassis I would like and budget does limit choice, but the standard lotus/westfield style is a high possibility. Oh, and i appreciate if i'm going to dump a silly large engine in a relatively small car i'm going to have to learn to weld - this will be the foremost priority prior to any chassis being bought (i'm intending to buy a decent single phase mig such as the Portamig 185 which should hopefully be able to weld just about anything to do with vehicles - and then simply learn through trial, error and a whole lot of google!).

So, guys - please throw out any advice you have, suggestions or words of warning!

Cheers!

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coozer

posted on 13/4/15 at 10:01 PM Reply With Quote
Hello mate, welcome.

I have a portamig 185 and its fantastic for welding.

Can I suggest a midi car? There's plenty of powerful front engines that can be moved to the back.

My next build is a Midlana and I'm going to use a bam 225 engine out of a Audi TT or Seat Cupra.

There is a book available for the Midlana and I'm keen to see someone here in the UK take it on. There are some builders here but we need to see a build thread!

Are you looking at a scratch build or building a kit?

Steve





1972 V8 Jago

1980 Z750

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thom.milburn

posted on 13/4/15 at 10:11 PM Reply With Quote
You know, the Midlana's look bloody brilliant - and i'm already fairly familiar with the VAG stable and fancied the BAM or AGU in the 'rocco i mentioned. Theoretically one of these, with gearbox and shafts could be lowered pretty much straight in?

And i'm unsure on the frame - i'd like to build one myself but was unsure on all the IVA stuff to be fair! I wasn't sure if buying a frame would make for an easier pass?

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adithorp

posted on 13/4/15 at 11:02 PM Reply With Quote
Get yourself to Stoneleigh show on 3-4th May for the NationalKitCar Show and get some ideas. If the weathers good there'll be hundreds of kits there as well as the manufacturers.

On the car front, it sounds like an ambitious plan. Will be nice if you can pull it off, but there's a lot of abandoned projects where people have bitten of more than they can chew (no, insult intended). Have you been out in a kit? It's not all about power and achieving big power can compromise the other aspects.





"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire

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Ben_Copeland

posted on 14/4/15 at 09:04 AM Reply With Quote
Put your location down. Someone will be local and could possible show you around their car





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Slimy38

posted on 14/4/15 at 01:30 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by thom.milburn
You know, the Midlana's look bloody brilliant - and i'm already fairly familiar with the VAG stable and fancied the BAM or AGU in the 'rocco i mentioned. Theoretically one of these, with gearbox and shafts could be lowered pretty much straight in?

And i'm unsure on the frame - i'd like to build one myself but was unsure on all the IVA stuff to be fair! I wasn't sure if buying a frame would make for an easier pass?


To be honest, the frame build will get you used to welding, and you can put it together how you need it. If you buy a frame that is designed for a 1.6 Ford, and then put a four litre BMW engine in, you're going to have to do a fair bit of modification anyway just to get it to fit!!

I would also recommend the books. That Midlana one seems to be on the pricy side, but if you compare that to me buying the 250 locost book, the Haynes locost book and the Tiger Avon book, I think I've paid out pretty much the same price anyway!! I'd still recommend buying the Haynes one though, it's probably the best of the three.

And I second the Stoneleigh show if it's within your driving distance. If not, buy a tent and come anyway!

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thom.milburn

posted on 14/4/15 at 03:14 PM Reply With Quote
Hi guys, cheers for the replies. I really appreciate the responses and comments!

I have to admit, I've not actually been in ANYTHING that may be considered high performance, not beyond a bike anyway - that's rather embarrassing when talking about wanting to throw four litres of beemer into a tiny little car! I should however point out, i take great pleasure in the unique and the work that goes into my vehicles. This vehicle would be as much a showpiece as well as a usable daily driver (if one fancied on those sunny summer days), as well as a means of learning and demonstrating my abilities - this all sounds quite self-flattering, i suppose what i'm saying is I wanna have fun in all aspects!

Re the frame - I would prefer to build one myself I have to admit, my concerns come from not yet understanding the legal requirements on how these are built for iva/sva testing purposes - but also the fact it would be very easy to build a lemon I imagine. I would love a vehicle that looked great and was completely unique, but if it wants to crab everywhere that would not be so good! This isn't to say I don't trust myself, just that i'm unsure as to just how difficult it would be.

And i will certainly take the advice on putting my location up as it would be great to have a proper look around an individual's car, as well as to learn what theyre all about.

Someone at work asked what the car would be used for, and beyond having fun in the sun i'd love to get into some form of motorsport and something that really does appeal are hillclimbs and trackdays.

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02GF74

posted on 14/4/15 at 07:53 PM Reply With Quote
Seems like you want to build everything from a twin bike engine to a 4 l engined car and drive it for fun as well as race it.

Decide what you want. Say if hill climbing is what you want, then maybe buying car already set up for that is the best option.

If you are in for the building experience, then id suggest going for the mx5 based car, the original mk2 escort/sierra may not be so good as donors are rare thus expensive.

Engine wise 2 l tuned up to 150-200 is plenty.






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thom.milburn

posted on 14/4/15 at 08:29 PM Reply With Quote
Cheers mate, i appreciate what youre saying - youre right in saying i'm a bit lost at the moment and apologise if anyone feels frustrated by that!

I guess thats why i'm here - to find guidance and inspiration. Truthfully, I am leaning towards a bike engined car if it wasn't for their dislike of hill starts (supposedly?) and somewhat highly strung nature; furthermore, i do have to question whether I would in fact be better off building a 'starter' car based around a more accessible vehicle (BMW 320 perhaps) and then perhaps uprate as and if necessary in the future.

I think the forum is simply too kind to me and has offered much too much for my little imagination to contend with and therefore I do want the twin turbo supercharged dual-bike engined titanium framed and carbon clad kit car! I shall come back down to sensible land, and perhaps get a real grasp on what it is I want!

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The Black Flash

posted on 15/4/15 at 02:17 PM Reply With Quote
Dreaming is good, and in my experience it takes a while for those dreams to crystalise on something specific.
But don't underestimate the work involved in a build, even a normal one with just one engine should be challenge enough. Particularly if you go off the beaten track at all, the work and expense rises considerably and quickly. That's fine if you're really into the build side of things, but a bit rubbish if you are more focussed on just owning and driving the thing. It all depends on what you want.
I would say that motorsport and a daily-driver showpiece are probably right at the opposite ends of things though. You can't be precious about a race car, and if you spend years making something perfect and shiny, you probably won't want to risk it on a hillclimb.

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kj

posted on 15/4/15 at 02:33 PM Reply With Quote
Thom

My Brother mentioned a Robin hood for sale cheap with a big engine bay





Think about it, think about it again and then do it.

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Irony

posted on 15/4/15 at 04:00 PM Reply With Quote
When I started thinking about a kit car I decided what I wanted from it. I didn't want a ear splitting screaming track based hell raiser that can put in awesome lap times, so no bike engines. I knew I was/am a complete novice when it comes to engineering, so I needed a basic engine where the path has been walked many times before. This ruled out many more exotic engine choices. I didn't feel that comfortable in a Caterham I went in, I felt I was sitting on it rather than in it. So something bigger was needed. But most of all I wanted it to have the coolest sounding engine possible. I don't really like the Cobra type kit cars nor could I afford one.

So I wanted a car that is.

1. Quick and thrilling but not that quick
2. Simple, easy and been done before
3. Large
4. Awesome sounding.

So when a part built Luego Viento V8 came up on eBay I bought it. It ticks all my boxes. If anything its been a massive effort to get to where I am now. 70% of my time has been been about learning. When I started I didn't even know that the chassis are the earth on cars, now I have wired the entire car.

I am sure if you go through a similar process you will end up with a clearer view.

Also do not underestimate the sheer amount of work it takes to build a kit car from scratch. Every single aspect, every nut, every strut and every hole needs to be thought about. Any kitcar is 'enough of a project' for anyone if you have a life. If your single and work part time then consider anything do-able. If you have a full time job, young children, a house and a wife you'll be lucky to get any time at all. Unless of course you hate your wife and kids and need to hide.

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Irony

posted on 15/4/15 at 04:03 PM Reply With Quote
To put building a kit car into perspective I think I have worked harder on the car and learn't more than I did when I did my degree. The car has cost me less than the degree however and in the end I'll have a car.
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adithorp

posted on 15/4/15 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
I've been fixing cars for a living for 30+ years (not bad at it either)and there was stuff I came across builing that I had no idea about. For anyone without that back ground it's a steep learning curve (and cudos to those on here that have achieved it).

With that in mind I'd advise following a well troden path for a first build. It'd still end up "individual" but will take a lot of the stress and difficulty out. Pick a kit and running gear thats easy to upgrade later. So something 3series based (GKD?) and you could start with 1.8 but change to an M3 motor later or MX5 and you could go turbo or S/C... or just do it right and stick a bike engine in . Bettermaking progress,getting on the road and upgrading than years of struggling and rebuilding because stuff doesn't work. There's a reason twin engine, turbo, supercharged, 4x4 monster kits are rare... and it isn't because we want to go slow.

Again Stoneleigh show would be a good place to get plenty of reaserch done. Get there early Sunday, look around the halls before they get busy, go outside and look at the owners kits and have a chat and ask a few Q's (and maybe blag a rideor 2). It'd take you weeks to learn what you can in a day there.





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Hellfire

posted on 15/4/15 at 05:31 PM Reply With Quote
I'd never considered even building a kit car until I found out that MK were sticking bike engines in theirs. It was this alone that got me hooked and I would never consider building a kit car with a car engine. They're just not the same.... Get yourself a ride in a BEC and you'll know instantly if a BEC is for you or not.

Phil






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kj

posted on 15/4/15 at 05:55 PM Reply With Quote
I had 2 car engine 7s and prefer the bike engine performance is spot on the noise is addictive





Think about it, think about it again and then do it.

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thom.milburn

posted on 16/4/15 at 03:34 PM Reply With Quote
Hi guys - all your advice is really good, and eye opening! Thanks, and thanks again for the warm reception - often forums nowadays are full of people too quick to shoot people down, but not this place!

I'm going to go back to basics, as suggested and decide really what i NEED versus what I want. I've been thinking, and whilst im still undecided whether or not to fab my own chassis (as i quite like the customisable aspect, but i appreciate the tricky nature and potential for it to drag on/never get finished) - I may simply be able to find a part finished project which would be extremely viable given their prices. I have decided I would like to run a bike engine if possible (need to look into which I could get away with using without having to dry sump) and possibly run this through BMW parts (such as those found on a 318i or whatever is cheapest to purchase at the time/easiest to swap over - i don't fancy multiple ECU's for example).

Realistically, all i want is a fast and light road car which I could track very occasionally (read as "If i ever felt the urge", I feel as though the bike engine is important for myself to enjoy the vehicle, particularly with the acceleration and sound (two things which you can use every day - unlike v8/v12 top speed for example). There is still a little doubt about whether or not to go mid-engine and whether or not these vehicles would perform better than front engined - but i do feel front engined will enable a lot more flexibility in the future when i decide I want to do further modifications.

On the note of the show! Unfortunately I'll be working, but I am hoping to perhaps meet a couple of locals who can show me their vehicles and how they have theirs set up - particularly the BEC's!

So, in brief:

I want a Locust style frame (tubular or square i dont yet know)
BMW donor
900+cc bike engine (but one that won't break the bank e.g CBR1000F)
Primarily I want usability, followed by fun, followed by future potential to upgrade - in that order.

I think that clears it up a bit for us all!

Oh, and whoever mentioned ambitious - i promise i'll throw a bit of that in for good measure!

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coozer

posted on 16/4/15 at 03:53 PM Reply With Quote
The design of the Midlana is worked out and the frame looks good.

Chassis donor is an MX5 and Kurt built his with a turbo nutter Honda engine knocking about 420bhp!

My idea of using a BAM 225 was because I could simply drive it in to a tuner and chip it up to 280, them a turbo upgrade with cams and your on to over 300!

My other idea was a PD150 oil burner, off the Dark Developments for it to come back with 300bhp and 400ft/lb!!!!

Whole engine box ecu and wiring from the TT or cupra. Buy a whole car take the motor and trans out and sell the rest, Quid's in!

Only thing to work out is mating the vag driveshafts to the mx5 CV joints on the uprights. Easy done IMO.

I got the book on a deal from Lulu, they occasionally have like -30% offers.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?keyWords=midlana&type=

Worth contacting Kurt the designing as he's on here regular. Search his user kb58.

Good luck!
Steve





1972 V8 Jago

1980 Z750

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coozer

posted on 16/4/15 at 03:54 PM Reply With Quote
Where about in the north east are ya mate?





1972 V8 Jago

1980 Z750

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ReMan

posted on 16/4/15 at 04:18 PM Reply With Quote
So one of these then:

http://www.gkdsportscars.com/index.html

Dump the rubbishy BMW engine, fit an R1 lump and bish bosh








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Irony

posted on 16/4/15 at 04:24 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
So one of these then:

http://www.gkdsportscars.com/index.html

Dump the rubbishy BMW engine, fit an R1 lump and bish bosh





You BEC boys are quite dismissive of CECs. I think it must be that your brains are addled by the high pitch screamy whine your engines give off.

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russbost

posted on 16/4/15 at 06:15 PM Reply With Quote
Firstly welcome to the forum

Took a first run of the year out in the Furore today & had forgotten just how massive a grin the car puts on my face! I would just like to say that bike engines rule & that a ZZR1400 will do everything any car engine can do & also anything any bike engine can do. Build something mid engined with a bike engine in the back!





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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thom.milburn

posted on 19/4/15 at 07:25 AM Reply With Quote
Hi mate, i do like the F1 lookalike, however for me I couldn't drive one without feeling a little silly (its not actually an f1 car after all, much like MR2's with ferrari body kits arn't ferraris!) but thats just my view - plenty of people seem to like them (and they must make excellent talking points!)

I think, to be honest, I'll be looking along the lines of standard lotus seven replica territory. I see them as light and functional with a huge following for support. Mid engined is a possibility, but i do feel a front engined setup would be simpler in terms of swapping in an out donor engines in the future.

I've had my eyes on a couple of 3 series BMW's cheap on ebay, everything from 316's upto 330's. One or two of them have been extensively modified too (adjustable suspension, superlight alloys and even a supercharger in one case) which i think will provide an excellent starting point and should simply enable a bike engine to be dropping in in the future on the BMW running gear (remove the engine/box and drop a bike engine in where it sat).

I do think i'm going to find someones abandoned project and see where we go from there

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kj

posted on 19/4/15 at 08:22 AM Reply With Quote
There's a Haynes roadster project in Sheffield on e bay with MX doner parts and don't v5 starting at 600 I think it is.





Think about it, think about it again and then do it.

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