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Author: Subject: Which comprehensive 'Full Kit' - Westfield, Tiger or MK?
cjwood23

posted on 19/5/21 at 04:47 PM Reply With Quote
Which comprehensive 'Full Kit' - Westfield, Tiger or MK?

So I have been rethinking how much I want to spend on a kit car and I fancy going down the self build route.
I'd look to buy a complete package from a manufacturer for ease of purchase, knowing that it will all go together and getting a brand new car at the end of it.

So far I've looked at Tiger, MK and Westfield.

I've priced them all up on a virtually identical spec.

>MK Indy R - complete package (inc. engine & box sourced separately) - £19k

>Tiger Avon - complete package - £20.3k

>Westfield Classic SE - Complete package - £23.5k

All above are:
>2.0 Zetec with throttle bodies all around 170BHP
>MSA type rear roll bar & stays
>Full screen & wipers
>Non LSD diff

Quality of build manual will also play a part.
>I know Tiger don't have a build manual as such, and already having the 'how to build an Avon book' that doesn't seem that comprehensive.

>Westfields manual seems pretty good, although reading a few recent build threads on WSCC they seem to be out of date in places - but most of the missing/altered info is available in the various threads.

>MK manual seems decent from what I can glean on various forums/blogs - reluctant to pay the £50 to download and have a look.

I know that Westfield also have discounts available at various times of the year on kits etc. so could save 10-15% by waiting for one of those which would drop the cost down quite significantly.

Other advantage of Westfield is they're only 45 minutes down the road from me, and their phone/email support seems pretty decent.

This would be my 50th present to myself in a couple of years so wouldn't want to layout that amount of cash and not get a decent product at the end.

Anyone have recent experience of building any of the above kits?

Any other complete kits I should look at?





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Simon

posted on 19/5/21 at 05:15 PM Reply With Quote
You could also look at Aeon and GKD ...
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big_wasa

posted on 19/5/21 at 05:40 PM Reply With Quote
I wouldn't count on a discount with mk, they look super busy.
I like the energy and enthusiasm of both Mk and Gbs.

I love the zetec but it's pretty much dead and gone thanks to them being the new pinto for a lot of motor sport. Due to the 2.0 drying up I hear they are moving onto the 1.8's

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tegwin

posted on 19/5/21 at 05:51 PM Reply With Quote
Whatís resale value like these days?

It always used to be that Westfield was better known so second hand prices were higher. (May not matter to you I guess)





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roadrunner

posted on 19/5/21 at 05:56 PM Reply With Quote
Re sale values are quite high at the moment.
I know on Facebook there is a lot of people looking to buy used MK's.

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cjwood23

posted on 19/5/21 at 06:50 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks guys - appreciated.

Wasn't expecting a discount from MK, I just noted the Westfield occasionally offer them which would drop the price.

Yes MK seem very busy and super enthusiastic which is great to see.

I did briefly look at GBS but the only full package they seem to offer is the 'Ultimate self build' with the Duratec but that's best part of £28k, might email and see what else they can offer. Would also have to factor in painting or wrapping with the GBS too.

GKD look to have passed the Legend on to DMO, but I was looking to stick with Ford running gear to be honest.





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jps

posted on 19/5/21 at 06:51 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cjwood23
I know that Westfield also have discounts available at various times of the year on kits etc. so could save 10-15% by waiting for one of those which would drop the cost down quite significantly.

Other advantage of Westfield is they're only 45 minutes down the road from me, and their phone/email support seems pretty decent.

I have no experience of any of them, but these two points would make it Westfield for me, especially the latter. If anything does go wrong the ability to deal face to face would, I expect, be invaluable.

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JimSpencer

posted on 19/5/21 at 07:51 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cjwood23
Any other complete kits I should look at?


IMHO..
A complete, running, registered one of what you want.. that's as close to the spec you want as you can find.

Then strip it back to the bare chassis, turn it back to a kit (if you then want to of course) and rebuild it to exactly how you want it and when done, fill in a simple form letting the DVLA know of changes to the registered spec, nip it along for a new MoT (assuming the old one's expired!) and drive off..

You'll have spent about 50% of what you're suggesting above, have exactly the same 'experience' with a whole heap less hassle with 'officialdom' and you'll know how it goes together as you'll have taken it apart..

I know it's not exactly a good business model for the manufacturers but there's loads of cars out there to choose from, you still get the 'personalised product' at the end of it and it's a whole heap of change cheaper.. and you avoid all that paperwork..


Only other thing to add is make sure you Know what you intend to do with it once you've built it, for example:-
If it's club motorsport add in anything with a Sylva/RAW badge on it!
If it's cruising with the good lady then err towards the more 'finished' products and ensure a windscreen, doors and preferably a soft-top are there
(Mine won't go in the Striker... but it's damn quick on a track.. :cool

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Barkalarr
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posted on 19/5/21 at 08:34 PM Reply With Quote
Why not organise a trip to see all the manufacturers take a ride out in their demonstrator cars.

If youíre looking that that BHP, have you considered the Indy RX-5 ? (I know itís not going to give you a new plate)
Also, MK now own the Striker, so you should keep that on your radar too.

My suggestion is, phone the suppliers and see what sort of response you get from them over the phone.

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cjwood23

posted on 20/5/21 at 06:42 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barkalarr
Why not organise a trip to see all the manufacturers take a ride out in their demonstrator cars.

If youíre looking that that BHP, have you considered the Indy RX-5 ? (I know itís not going to give you a new plate)
Also, MK now own the Striker, so you should keep that on your radar too.

My suggestion is, phone the suppliers and see what sort of response you get from them over the phone.


Thanks for the reply.
I had considered the RX-5, but I didn't want the hassle of stripping a donor or using an engine & gear box that 80k on it.

I'd consider saving £2k on the Westfield and going with the standard 150BHP set up, bet led to believe that if you want to fit ITB's later you need a different steering column - something I need to check out.

[Edited on 20/5/21 by cjwood23]





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CosKev3

posted on 20/5/21 at 07:28 AM Reply With Quote
Deffo factor in a LSD,saves you stripping the car in a few months to fit one when you get fed up of the inside wheel spinning up!

MX5 running gear is much better than Ford now,ie hubs/uprights/diff/gearbox is way way better than a Type9 or MT75 Ford box!

Westfield chassis's haven't been developed on in years,only thing they update is engine fitment.
Not saying it's a bad thing,but have seen knowledgeable Westfield owners stating they have been left behind by the likes of MNR and MK in chassis design.

MNR are another manufacturer that makes nice cars.

Knock Tiger off your list imo,they are well stuck in the dark ages and the worst kit out of the bigger brands.

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ianhurley20

posted on 20/5/21 at 08:05 AM Reply With Quote
I've got no experience of building either Westfield or MK but have built a Haynes Roadster and a Tiger Avon. I am afraid I wouldn't recomend the the Avon at all. There were lots of things that didn't fit - or were not explained for the build - or indeed were explained wrongly - or were not manufactured as per the build manual. Wiring loom? The only advice was - green and white, on the right. Took ages to figure out the loom with no wiring diagram.
That said I am impressed with GBS - have a look at their video explaining the wiring loom to see what I mean.





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02GF74

posted on 20/5/21 at 08:09 AM Reply With Quote
£ 20k plus and you have to spanner it together yourself? That's insane, that money is used 911 and Caterham territory. Does that include costs to get it registered 10% for sundries and shiny bits and tools for the build?

If it is for the build experience and money is not a concern then IMO Westfield produce the most professional package as well as keep their values best.

If and when you have finished it after 3 years, you can expect to get 75% of what it cost you, that is not including all the time and swearing it took to build it.

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djtom

posted on 20/5/21 at 10:46 AM Reply With Quote
Completely agree with the poster above who advocates buying something already built, stripping it back to the constituent bits, and rebuilding/refurbing to your preferred spec. Avoids the hassle and expense of SVA, saves you an shed load of cash, you get to understand how it is put together, and you'll end up with a better spec than you would if you buy new.

Also, and I admit this is anecdotal, but evidence appears to suggest that anything short of a new Caterham will fall well short of being a "bolt together" kit of parts. Dependant on manufacturer, expect to have to do some level of fabrication / alteration / remanufacture due to things not fitting, not lining up or just being crap...

£20k will buy you a R400K level caterham, on the road. Buy one of them, take it apart and put it back together. At present they're pretty much depreciation-proof at that price, whereas if you spend £20k on a new Tiger you'll struggle to sell it for £10k...



[Edited on 20/5/21 by djtom]

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cjwood23

posted on 20/5/21 at 02:33 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks chaps - all good valid points.

Will discount the Tiger based on the fact it seems to need more fabrication & re-engineering.

I would like to build one and have the satisfaction of having built it.

Have dropped MK an email seeing what engine packages they can offer as part of a full kit.

Will also look at the possibility of rebuilding an existing car - but reluctant in case it uncovers more issues and turns into a nightmare.

I've also dropped GBS an email to see what their 'Complete' Mazda kit includes.

Is there anywhere that does MX5 donor packs? as that would put the MK RX-5 back on the table... despite what I previously said about not wanting to use a recycled engine etc....

[Edited on 20/5/21 by cjwood23]





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posted on 20/5/21 at 09:01 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cjwood23
Thanks chaps - all good valid points.

Will discount the Tiger based on the fact it seems to need more fabrication & re-engineering.

I would like to build one and have the satisfaction of having built it.

Have dropped MK an email seeing what engine packages they can offer as part of a full kit.

Will also look at the possibility of rebuilding an existing car - but reluctant in case it uncovers more issues and turns into a nightmare.

I've also dropped GBS an email to see what their 'Complete' Mazda kit includes.

Is there anywhere that does MX5 donor packs? as that would put the MK RX-5 back on the table... despite what I previously said about not wanting to use a recycled engine etc....

[Edited on 20/5/21 by cjwood23]


Speak with MK - they are doing donor cars, Iím sure if you spoke to them nicely they would be able to help you.

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sdh2903

posted on 20/5/21 at 09:45 PM Reply With Quote
I can only speak from experience with Westfield as I've built 2 over the past 4 years. But I wouldn't go for a complete kit from them. Why? Just based on cost.

Back in 2017 I built a sport 250 with the 2.0 ecoboost for around 5k cheaper than the starting price of a complete kit. That's built, iva'd and registered with all the the spec you list plus a fresh Lsd, upgraded Aim dash and a better suspension and brake package. That was on the road for less than the current complete package you quote.

I did that by using a lightly used engine vs new. Same with the gearbox. Sourcing parts myself without the Westfield markup and keeping my eye on the WSCC for sale sections and also taking advantage of the Westfield parts shop discount codes that come up every couple of months. Also one thing to bear in mind. If your doing it for a warranty. That starts at the point of purchase with a Westfield so if you take a year to build and get it on the road then you'll have used up your warranty already.

As above Westfield residuals are strong and I'd even say prices have been on the up over the past year but then again most cars have.

The price increases will also be related to the zetec engine. They are 2k now vs 600 quid a few years back. Add on the cost of the throttle bodies, ecu and gearbox (a standard type 9 which you will invariably end up wanting rebuilt with a better gear ratio set at 1800 quid) and the engine and box combo is probably tipping 5k. You will probably end up spending 1 or 2 grand over that figure as well don't forget for consumables and iva test etc.

As has previously been said I'd seriously consider buying one done. Find one that's close to your ideal spec and then add the finishing touches and modifications to make it your own and you'll have a load of money left in the bank. I can understand the lure of building though. I've built and iva'd 3 now and have loved doing it but I just can't be arsed with the iva now.

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cjwood23

posted on 20/5/21 at 11:04 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
I can only speak from experience with Westfield as I've built 2 over the past 4 years. But I wouldn't go for a complete kit from them. Why? Just based on cost.

Back in 2017 I built a sport 250 with the 2.0 ecoboost for around 5k cheaper than the starting price of a complete kit. That's built, iva'd and registered with all the the spec you list plus a fresh Lsd, upgraded Aim dash and a better suspension and brake package. That was on the road for less than the current complete package you quote.

I did that by using a lightly used engine vs new. Same with the gearbox. Sourcing parts myself without the Westfield markup and keeping my eye on the WSCC for sale sections and also taking advantage of the Westfield parts shop discount codes that come up every couple of months. Also one thing to bear in mind. If your doing it for a warranty. That starts at the point of purchase with a Westfield so if you take a year to build and get it on the road then you'll have used up your warranty already.

As above Westfield residuals are strong and I'd even say prices have been on the up over the past year but then again most cars have.

The price increases will also be related to the zetec engine. They are 2k now vs 600 quid a few years back. Add on the cost of the throttle bodies, ecu and gearbox (a standard type 9 which you will invariably end up wanting rebuilt with a better gear ratio set at 1800 quid) and the engine and box combo is probably tipping 5k. You will probably end up spending 1 or 2 grand over that figure as well don't forget for consumables and iva test etc.

As has previously been said I'd seriously consider buying one done. Find one that's close to your ideal spec and then add the finishing touches and modifications to make it your own and you'll have a load of money left in the bank. I can understand the lure of building though. I've built and iva'd 3 now and have loved doing it but I just can't be arsed with the iva now.


Thanks for that - some really great info.
Yes the price increase on the Zetec is quite a bit - all of the kits seem to have gone up around £2K.

I looked at Raceline and OMEX for engine packages as MK source them from OMEX - both are north of £5K for a 170 Zetec.

I will have a rethink and maybe look at a used engine.





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CosKev3

posted on 21/5/21 at 09:22 AM Reply With Quote
5k for a zetec is ridiculous!

Gearbox choice is important, a standard Type9 or MT75 are awful as they aren't close ratio.
If you do decide on a Type9 you need to factor in nearly 2k to get one with uprated/close ratio gearkit.

With your budget you could find a Mega S2000 for sale that are a really good car with circa 230bhp and a nice 6 speed close ratio box as standard

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Charlie_Zetec

posted on 21/5/21 at 11:25 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cjwood23
Thanks for that - some really great info.
Yes the price increase on the Zetec is quite a bit - all of the kits seem to have gone up around £2K.

I looked at Raceline and OMEX for engine packages as MK source them from OMEX - both are north of £5K for a 170 Zetec.

I will have a rethink and maybe look at a used engine.


£5k is utterly ridiculous! Is there any reason why you'd want a new, crate engine? If it's for registration/new number plate status, then consider buying a second hand engine and getting it rebuilt (I believe you're allowed one items from the major components that's reconditioned to "as new". If you're going to put a "new" gearbox in it from Tran-X, Quaife etc., then that's fine. Last time I checked, crate engines were being sold at about £2k + VAT, and were in short supply.

To put it in perspective, I bought a 2.0L Mondeo Zetec blacktop for £700, ran around in it for 8 months, then scrapped the chassis for £220. Had the engine rebuilt (this included full head overhaul, new valves, skim, bottom end rebore and new pistons, rings, shells etc.) all for <£1,200 all in. Only thing not included was alternator and starter. I've got a receipt with full breakdown, showing that it has been rebuilt using new components with 0 miles.





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cjwood23

posted on 21/5/21 at 11:33 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
£5k is utterly ridiculous! Is there any reason why you'd want a new, crate engine? If it's for registration/new number plate status, then consider buying a second hand engine and getting it rebuilt (I believe you're allowed one items from the major components that's reconditioned to "as new". If you're going to put a "new" gearbox in it from Tran-X, Quaife etc., then that's fine. Last time I checked, crate engines were being sold at about £2k + VAT, and were in short supply.

To put it in perspective, I bought a 2.0L Mondeo Zetec blacktop for £700, ran around in it for 8 months, then scrapped the chassis for £220. Had the engine rebuilt (this included full head overhaul, new valves, skim, bottom end rebore and new pistons, rings, shells etc.) all for <£1,200 all in. Only thing not included was alternator and starter. I've got a receipt with full breakdown, showing that it has been rebuilt using new components with 0 miles.


Getting an engine reconditioned if a good alternative I suppose - factor in a DanST Throttle body package & ECU and suppose you're looking around £3k.

Not in a position to start buying/building yet but found this on eBay for £300:

eBay - Brand New Bare 1.8 Duratec

Appreciate the 1.8 isn't the Duratec of choice but I reckon that could be a decent engine with ITB's.





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Charlie_Zetec

posted on 21/5/21 at 03:22 PM Reply With Quote
Not sure what the 1800 Duratec lumps are like, but for £300, seems a very reasonable price.

If you want to stick to Zetec, there's 1800's galore floating around; in standard guise you could get them from the standard 105/115bhp to similar power output to the 2L variant (136bhp?) by putting the 2L cams in them. Again, not sure how Zetec vs. Duratec cc for cc compare, but Westfield did an 1800 SpeedSport model using a Zetec, so can't be all that bad....





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Westy1994

posted on 21/5/21 at 11:24 PM Reply With Quote
Another post saying, buy one already registered then drive it whilst you decide what mods to do.

Its what i did having done some research into the final build cost and associated registering costs - unless of course you want to build one for the ' I built it myself' tag or perhaps you just want the challenge of building one from scratch. Either way I would add probably another 10 to 20% to your budget over the actual kit cost.

Regarding which manufacturer, well I am a bit biased obviously, but Westfield's in general do hold their prices reasonably well and yes they do occasionally have the discount codes available, and sod's law says I put in an order then the next week they offer the discount..... Oh well.

Good luck with whatever you decide on.





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cjwood23

posted on 22/5/21 at 08:23 AM Reply With Quote
Have spoken to GBS and it seems like the 'full Mazda package' is everything minus donor bits - so pretty much the same as the MK RX-5 package, but £3k more......

Further to charlie_zetec's post regarding engine choice if I went used Zetec it looks like Specialised Engines could do a rebuild/remanufactured service for £1100 or Stage 1 for £1500 - so I could get an as new Stage 1 engine for less than £2k depending on how much I spent on the donor engine.
Throw on a set of DanST ITB's & should have a 180 bhp engine for £3.5k.....

There's also a local company who will do the same with the Mazda engine for similar price.....

Too many decisions!

But MK are looking the favourite as their complete kits appear to be better VFM.





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ReMan

posted on 22/5/21 at 09:51 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
£ 20k plus and you have to spanner it together yourself? That's insane, that money is used 911 and Caterham territory. Does that include costs to get it registered 10% for sundries and shiny bits and tools for the build?

If it is for the build experience and money is not a concern then IMO Westfield produce the most professional package as well as keep their values best.

If and when you have finished it after 3 years, you can expect to get 75% of what it cost you, that is not including all the time and swearing it took to build it.


This was my Thinking! I built my MK for £7k albeit in 2006, And its probably worth 4-7 now, but £20k for either of theses 3 is mad money for a plastic kit car!

I bought my Porsche 4 years ago (still got the MK) and can still get one today for £20k same spec
Agree a a premium alway s for the westys but £21k
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