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Author: Subject: Blacktop rebuild 220hp????
Samuele

posted on 15/9/21 at 05:58 PM Reply With Quote
Blacktop rebuild 220hp????

I have some questions to ask:
I have a Blacktop 2.0 16V engine in good condition.
I will use this with an omex ecu 600 and throttle body 45mm.
the engine will remain series.
in the meantime I'm going to get another Blacktop engine and calmly work it out with the hope of getting around 220hp.
The head,portet work, who should I have it prepared by?
Raceline, Burton, CNCHeads?
who do you recommend?
also as a support and seriousness.
as internals I thought of JE 85.5mm 11: 1 pistons and Eagle connecting rods.
It doesn't seem to me that there is much choice when it comes to connecting rods.
how are the Eagle connecting rods?
Have you had good results with regard to strength and quality of workmanship of the connecting rod up to now?

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number-1

posted on 15/9/21 at 08:10 PM Reply With Quote
Dunnell can do the job for you. Have a look at the facebook group as a few members use them for race engines, such as stylussprinter
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big_wasa

posted on 15/9/21 at 08:37 PM Reply With Quote
Have a look on Fb for ALD Andrew Lindsay developments.
Well regarded for Zetec head work but I would also be very happy spending my cash with Scholar or Dunnell engines.

I used a set of Williams racing con rods in my turbo. They do others. They are chinese but so are most.


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Samuele

posted on 15/9/21 at 08:53 PM Reply With Quote
I did not list Dunnel in the list only because I heard that his stuff does not fit on other engines, ie basically if I have the cylinder head work by him, I will only be able to fit his cams.
I don't know if that's really the case.
That Dunnell builds excellent engines this, however, I absolutely do not doubt.

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HowardB

posted on 16/9/21 at 09:18 AM Reply With Quote
my Dunnell 1600 makes 175bhp - sounds epic too





Howard

Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)

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big_wasa

posted on 16/9/21 at 01:23 PM Reply With Quote
I would consider Dunnel and Scholar as a traditional engine builder. You give them a usable base engine and a stack of cash and tell them what you want and you get it.
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pigeondave

posted on 16/9/21 at 01:31 PM Reply With Quote
I went for Dunnell option (3 Carbs).

I then went for ATPower throttle bodies.

Car was at the power level youre looking for in both instances.
The carbs had more mid-range power as the chokes were a little smaller to keep the inlet velocity up.

The injection saved about half the fuel and stopped the petrol smell.

Speak to different engine builders and see what they say. I can't see Paul Dunnell turning you away if you don't what to use his cams.

My engine had pocketed pistons, that's what I was told. I don't know if that is a must for the higher power levels.

I can post both graphs if you would like to see them?

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Samuele

posted on 16/9/21 at 06:57 PM Reply With Quote
If you can post the graphs it would be nice.
Also to see what torque curve it has.
samuele.collura@gmx.de

I sent a request email to Dunnell, Burton, Raceline, and Cncheads.
Let's see if that's when it responds

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HowardB

posted on 16/9/21 at 07:53 PM Reply With Quote


this is my engine on the dyno - redline is 8500 rpm after a rebuild - it dropped a rod

1600 silvertop
Original build by Dunnell
broken by me
rebuild by EXON

[Edited on 17/9/21 by HowardB]





Howard

Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)

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HowardB

posted on 16/9/21 at 07:53 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Samuele
If you can post the graphs it would be nice.
Also to see what torque curve it has.
samuele.collura@gmx.de

I sent a request email to Dunnell, Burton, Raceline, and Cncheads.
Let's see if that's when it responds


I'll dig the curve out and post it here





Howard

Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)

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pigeondave

posted on 16/9/21 at 10:10 PM Reply With Quote
Weber Carbs by pigeondave, on Flickr

ATPower Throttle Bodies by pigeondave, on Flickr

Soft Cut Rev. Limiter Set at 7500
Hard Cut Rev. Limiter Set at 7700

Current Exhaust is probably strangling the power a bit as its a little undersized. Current exhaust is not the one the engine was tested with. Tests were with Dunnell exhaust, he has his own dyno room. I just picked up the engine from him and listened to a few stories over a cup of tea.

But the power is plenty enough for me. I'd be quite happy to drop a bit of weight out the car like you have.

Hope this helps

[Edited on 16/9/21 by pigeondave]

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Samuele

posted on 17/9/21 at 05:37 PM Reply With Quote
Thank you all for the answers you have given in the meantime.

@pigeondave:

Very nice torque curve that of the first graphs with the carburetors.
You have no other information, such as which cams are mounted, connecting rods and so on?

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pigeondave

posted on 19/9/21 at 12:30 AM Reply With Quote
yeah I think the start of the carb graph might be a little wrong as the torque values dont seem to work out with the bhp ones.

like I said before, I went for the option 3 (with a new crate 2.0 blacktop supplied by Dunnell) on the Dunnell website so it was the Dunnell ZRV cams, cylinder head work, vernier cam pulleys. ARP bolts in the con rods. I was told I also had pocketed pistons.
Rods are standard, oil is the Dunnell sump (not dry sump, have it dry allows revs to be increased)

I believe that they will rev the standard crank to 8000rmp with a dry sump

I also believe that he does something with the oil spring or a return valve which he keeps quiet.

The only thing i then changed was the injection so i think i have a option 6 now.

please update the thread with any replies you get, it would probably be useful for others to have an idea of what can be done.

Don't ask me the price, as I paid as the invoices landed (I asked for them to be broken down seemed easier to stomach ) and have definitely not added them all up.

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Samuele

posted on 20/9/21 at 06:55 AM Reply With Quote
This is the stuff I would like to use for the second motor, the more powerful one.
I would start to get the missing stuff but I don't know exactly what yet.
So far no one has answered my request yet.
Neither Dunnell nor Receline or CNCHeads.
On the Dunnell website I was able to understand with certainty and only the Head with the number RMP101.
and already the price is not clear, as it varies from 795-1150GBP.
Of course I would like to be sure that I am spending my money on the right pieces


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pigeondave

posted on 20/9/21 at 09:58 PM Reply With Quote
Some nice bits there in that photo.

One thing I would say is that you need to ensure that the raceline water rail is able to allow for some bypass flow.

From what I have read (and I'm sure you have researched) is that without any flow, the thermostat is relying on the water heating by conduction to eventually get hot enough for it to open. Once it opens it then floods the engine with cold water from the rad potentially causing a cold shock to the engine. I'm sure its not as bad as it sounds, and I believe that a few people drill a small bypass hole in the thermostat to stop this from happening.

There is also an issue with this rail being above the head and therefore creating an air lock in the system. Or something like that. I can't see this being true as if its the highest point, the air would be there.

I run an old school metal (silvertop) thermostat housing and not the plastic one which came off the blacktop. There is plenty of room behind the engine for this. I have my bellhousing about 5mm away from the chassis. The engine is so far back that I have been able to install the bar which goes across the rear of the top rockers.

Front Strut-Tie bar by pigeondave, on Flickr

Hope one of the builders get back to you soon.

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Samuele

posted on 21/9/21 at 06:24 AM Reply With Quote
thanks for your useful information,
I will take it into account.
for the frame I opted in a certain way for the BEC fury race frame solution.



I will however add a titanium bar to the frame at the bottom.
unfortunately I have to eliminate a crossbar that does not allow me to mount the oil pan.
it seems that with this engine it is too much.
instead with crossflow it was fine



as for the Dunnell, Raceline etc ... I don't know what to say ...
I hope their work is better than their service, at least until now.

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Samuele

posted on 27/9/21 at 05:54 AM Reply With Quote
Update:
Paul Dunnell replied to my email, so I'm waiting for a quote for some Option 6 pieces.
even if, however, the thing is changing a bit, if it is true on 2500 GPB of goods I have to pay 1200GPB of customs fees, a great sum ....
However, in these days of waiting I thought something:
I have an Omex 600 control unit with a basic program for Zetec 2.0 16v engines as standard with the only modification of the throttle body.
according to Omex everything should work quite simply.
Now my question: if I build the engine block already with forged pistons and steel connecting rods, can the control unit manage the engine?
using these pieces, especially the forged pistons, change the displacement and the compression ratio.
the compression ratio I can bring it to 10: 1 like a stock engine by using another thickness of the cylinder head quarnition.
the displacement would range from 1988cm to 2021cm.
Do you think I would have problems using the base map I have from Omex?
If it would work, in the future I would have to change only the cylinder head and the cams, without having to fully open the engine.
if Dunnell gives me the measurement of the lift of his cams, I can work the pockets of the pistons earlier.
if the distance between from valve on seat to piston pocket is too small.

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Sanzomat

posted on 27/9/21 at 08:32 AM Reply With Quote
I suspect the base map supplied with the ECU will allow it to start and run but after having invested in lots of tasty upgrades I think it would foolish not to invest a bit more in a good rolling road session to build a map that suits your car. There really isn't another way to get the best out of it as there is no way that the standard base map could allow for every variable. It is amazing the difference a good rolling road tuner can make to how it drives.
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Samuele

posted on 27/9/21 at 09:18 AM Reply With Quote
a rolling road session I will do it of course, but after I have received a suitable head.
and at the moment it seems to me that we are talking about many months between shipping work etc ...
I have to do the TÜV as soon as possible.
so i need an engine that works.
and if the control unit with the base map works, I prepare the engine block as mentioned above, I do the tüv, a good break-in of the engine, and when I have the right head I mount it and do a rolling road session.

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Samuele

posted on 14/10/21 at 08:31 AM Reply With Quote
update:
the result of my waiting has been transformed into a simple waiting.
no response received from CNChead, Burton, Raceline, Omex.
Not even Dunnell has let me know anything anymore.
therefore zero useful information to share.

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perksy

posted on 16/10/21 at 09:56 PM Reply With Quote
Surprised you haven't heard anything from Omex, Only ever heard good things about their customer service
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Sanzomat

posted on 17/10/21 at 08:22 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by perksy
Surprised you haven't heard anything from Omex, Only ever heard good things about their customer service

Second that. I've met Richard Wragg a few times on CKC Llandow track days in his Striker. Seems like a top bloke and very keen to help anyone with information so seems odd he wouldn't get back to you.

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Samuele

posted on 17/10/21 at 12:37 PM Reply With Quote
I enclose the response received on September 27 from Omex:

"Thank you for your email.

Due to staff shortages and high demand for our services, technical support is currently limited. We are doing our best to reply to everybody but we will unfortunately be slower than we would like to be.

Sorry for any inconvenience this causes.

Omex"

Given the scarce availability of answers regarding the processing of the aspirated engine, in particular the cylinder head of the various companies I contacted, I think I will opt for a Rotex compressor.
It seems to me now the most suitable solution to move forward.

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