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Author: Subject: ignition timing base maps for vauxhall 2.0 16v or similar
blakep82

posted on 21/5/22 at 06:13 PM Reply With Quote
ignition timing base maps for vauxhall 2.0 16v or similar

Hey everyone, been a while

I'm trying to find a base map for (ideally) a X20XEV on 45DCOE, using a canems ECU, which has been brilliant, but feel my timing is ridiculously mild. still, it made 152bhp on the dyno last year. I think its capable of much more.

wondered if anyone would mind sharing a few TPS base maps, for X20XEV, c20XEV, and probably any other similar 2.0 engine like zetec and duratec?



Many thanks!





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perksy

posted on 21/5/22 at 07:10 PM Reply With Quote
Yes that's a bit low for an XE on 45's

I think I've got a few XE maps on a spare drive, but their for XE's on TB's using MBE ECU's

You'd need Easimap to read them but they might help? (think this is still free to download on the SBD website)

Usual warning of use at own risk would apply though

[Edited on 21/5/22 by perksy]

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bikecarbfred

posted on 22/5/22 at 06:24 AM Reply With Quote
itsa nightmare when you know your cars not doing what it should be doing.
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snapper

posted on 22/5/22 at 07:57 AM Reply With Quote
Finding maps for any engine is a nightmare, nobody seems to want to share.
I only wanted 1 base map for a Duratec on Megasquirt just so I could compare all the other parameters not just ignition and fuel. Megasquirt forum is just weird in that respect and also a lot of the forum members just say “well read the manual” which wouldn’t give me the required settings anyway.

Frustrated of Chelmsford





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bikecarbfred

posted on 22/5/22 at 08:26 AM Reply With Quote
I think alot of people must not want to take risks to possibly hurt someone elses engine that they have never seen.

Maybe most people are sensisble and not "risk takers".

There is alot of talkers out there but when it comes to doing the business they run.

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Oddified

posted on 22/5/22 at 09:30 AM Reply With Quote
Got dozens of maps saved/backed up from Mbe ecu's for many different spec engines which i send to anyone who needs help, but none for Canems.

Ian

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Oddified

posted on 22/5/22 at 09:43 AM Reply With Quote
Quick screen shot of Easimap for an Mbe ecu ignition map from an XE-

Description
Description

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blakep82

posted on 23/5/22 at 06:49 PM Reply With Quote
thanks guys
heres a few screenshots of what i've got (note, the load scales are flipped between MJ and canems)

this is what i ran with last time, car was fine, no knocking, AFR was decent but was running really small jets, and this is what it made 152 on a dyno with, as a safe set up
safe
safe


this is a map (the only one for c20xe on 45s, except mines a X20XEV, but close enough) is freely available on the megajolt forum
mjforum
mjforum


and this is what i've expanded it into
canems map
canems map


my jetting is far too lean, as with the required jetting based on the DCOE calculator https://www.carbparts.eu/calc and all the guides and calculations i can find, the timing wasn't giving enough time for a complete burn, so the AFR gauge showing rich, which i then had to reduce through jetting.

theres no knock control, of course, but i have one of those LinkECU knock lights, which gives a reasonable warning.

i think if i've got the 150 mains, the last picture should be about right. of course, my rev limit is set to a conservative 6200rpm i think, not the 8500rpm in the map. but 32 degrees appears to be about right

perksy and oddified, any info you may have would be brilliant! or even just to have a look over what you have and say if what i'm thinking is in the right area or not, would be great

[Edited on 23/5/22 by blakep82]





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bikecarbfred

posted on 23/5/22 at 06:52 PM Reply With Quote
you using a trigger wheel ; crank sensor setup
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blakep82

posted on 23/5/22 at 07:59 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
you using a trigger wheel ; crank sensor setup


Yeah canems can use the original internal timing system, or ford's system, so I'm using the internal timing wheel and sensor l9cation





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bikecarbfred

posted on 23/5/22 at 08:04 PM Reply With Quote
you feel like taking it up to 31-32 on full load dont you.

every engine is different, i had mine on 29 and was told try not going to 30 and now i am on 32.

maybe looking for power where it isnt. do you feel your engine should be doing more than it is?

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blakep82

posted on 23/5/22 at 09:20 PM Reply With Quote
No necessarily, no. More looking to see where others are, and maybe take an average to get in the area as a starting point. Oerhaos even knock it back by 1 or 2 degrees

Looking at the 4krpm area, full throttle (it's a track only car) seems to suggest I could be at 21°, and I'm at 16° which is a huge difference, and one of the areas where I'm lacking any real pull

The car is sort of bogging down, no real acceleration. Can't break traction in first gear (900kg rwd car, so should be easy enough) and 4th gear can't pull past about 5krpm, it's a cavalier engine capri (3.44 diff I think? Can't remember) axle, and sierra gearbox, all cars which should easily pull past that so can't see it being a gearing issue as it's all fairly well matched

I'm just looking to get a good starting point because at the moment it's actually really underwhelming to drive. I mean it is good, but in a way that a middle range family car is good at accelerating to motorway speed on a slip way

Mate has a mini Cooper s, so not saying this is a comparison but got an extra 20bhp at the wheels from a 3° advance at a tuner on his very mild base map that came with his aftermarket ecu

In short, just trying to get a measure of where I should be at so I dont over do, or under do it, because I really don't know and want to understand it





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bikecarbfred

posted on 26/5/22 at 06:21 PM Reply With Quote
3 degree advance 20bhp? is this on a turbo setup or N/A setup.

I thought rule of thumb was about 2-3BHP per every degree advance on N/A engines

[Edited on 26/5/22 by bikecarbfred]

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blakep82

posted on 27/5/22 at 10:02 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
3 degree advance 20bhp? is this on a turbo setup or N/A setup.

I thought rule of thumb was about 2-3BHP per every degree advance on N/A engines

[Edited on 26/5/22 by bikecarbfred]


Cooper s, supercharged. So he says anyway, but think he was a bit overwhelmed by the whole dyno experience so could be wrong





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bikecarbfred

posted on 28/5/22 at 05:16 AM Reply With Quote
What does it mean when they say “all in”?

So get your timing “all in”

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Oddified

posted on 31/5/22 at 08:09 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bikecarbfred
What does it mean when they say “all in”?

So get your timing “all in”


It's a term used to say the rpm point at which the max timing is at, eg, timing rises fairly proportionally up to say 3500rpm and then level from there to rev limiter, so is 'all in' by 3500rpm. Generally it's an old term used more for a dizzy setup, ecu's quite often have a few extra degree's advance just before peak rpm which a dizzy can't do.

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bikecarbfred

posted on 2/6/22 at 02:48 PM Reply With Quote
Yeah 3500rpm-4000rpm was around the area the "all in" phrase was most referering too.
I suspect the dizzy loses it's acccuracy after that stage?

i have a question regarding momentum of the rpm as it increased.

my ignition timing after 4000 rpm is as follows;

scenario A:27, 28, 29 , 30, 31, 31

let's say i get all my timing in by 4000rpm so therfore the ignition reads as follows;

Scenario B: 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31

So i have brought my max timing in earlier.

I asked a engine tuner specialist that woudnt scenario A be better, as the timing is increashing as the rpm increases therefore the momentum of the power gathers more equally. He replied; "The engine doesn't lose momentum, as you stated, when the timing advance is fixed after a certain rpm. Quite the opposite"

If a dizzy isn't as good as my mappable ECU then might aswell get it all "timed in " earlier?
Also what do you think the tuner meant when he said "quite the opposite"?

Would scenario B cause momentum to gather better as RPM increases with max timing chimed in all way through the higher power bands?

Thanks

[Edited on 2/6/22 by bikecarbfred]

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Oddified

posted on 4/6/22 at 08:40 PM Reply With Quote
Seldom does a modernish 4 valve engine need more than 28 deg advance, even if it's standard and even less likely if it's tuned/high compression/cams etc. Running more generally doesn't gain anything. The all in point is very engine dependant.

An ecu has huge advantages over a dizzy, the biggest is part throttle areas (eg light throttle cruising areas quite often have 40 - 45 deg) which makes a massive difference to driveability and also idle control.

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bikecarbfred

posted on 4/6/22 at 10:07 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Seldom does a modernish 4 valve engine need more than 28 deg advance, even if it's standard and even less likely if it's tuned/high compression/cams etc. Running more generally doesn't gain anything. The all in point is very engine dependant.

An ecu has huge advantages over a dizzy, the biggest is part throttle areas (eg light throttle cruising areas quite often have 40 - 45 deg) which makes a massive difference to driveability and also idle control.


its a 16 valver

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Oddified

posted on 5/6/22 at 06:56 PM Reply With Quote
4 valve x 4 cylinder = 16
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pmc_3

posted on 6/6/22 at 01:56 PM Reply With Quote
Bear in mind the X20XEV (Ecotec) and the 20XE/C20XE had different power outputs to start with, the X20XEV was about 135bhp and 135lb/ft where as the 20XE was 156bhp and 150lb/ft.

What mods has your engine got apart from the carbs? If it's just those then I wouldn't expect you'd be getting much more than you already are.

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