Mr Whippy
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| posted on 25/5/25 at 09:41 PM |
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EV to Diesel
Well, yes I've given up on the EV's, probably for good now. Can't say I didn't have a go, owned mine for 5 years when there were
way less of them on the road than now. Oddly I'd done a full 90 and gone old school diesel. Even though my leaf was very first gen I think it
still shares an inherent issue even modern EV's have and that is deprecation and degradation, both conspire to reduce the useable/economic life
of an EV to the point you have to ask, is it worth keeping this thing??
I was lucky, my mum was desperate for a leaf and as she does not drive much more than to the shops, it was still a perfect car for her, regardless of
whatever range it may have. However, for me that was starting to be a real issue, especially in winter as potential journeys became shorter and
shorter each year. The value of the car although high at first, plummeted like a brick, so even with just 50k miles and 70% SOH, it was valued at just
4k, am I then going to spend 5-6k getting a replacement battery? to me that made no sense, even though the car overall was fantastic.
So yeah I bought a 1999 Nissan Primera, 2.0 TD. It's mint, just 37k miles, one owner, obviously kept in a garage, has had 23 Nissan dealer full
services, plus a new cambelt and MOT!
Total cost - £3,995 (paid from part of the money I got for the Leaf)
Drove it all the way up from Oxfordshire to Aberdeen on Thursday, totally delighted with it, especially as it has none of those pesky modern diesel
issues  Although it does sound like a tractor 
 
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[Edited on 25/5/25 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Slimy38
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| posted on 26/5/25 at 08:06 AM |
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When I saw the post I thought 'that's a brave person, going for a diesel at the moment'!! But yeah I think you've done well to go
for an old oil burner that doesn't have to deal with emissions regs.
To be brutally honest I wonder whether other buyers would be scared off paying 4K for what is literally a 'last century' car, but you could
have added thousands to your budget to get something newer and still end up with a less reliable car.
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ianhurley20
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| posted on 26/5/25 at 09:05 AM |
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I was at one time quite keen on electric but stayed diesel. We now have a folding caravan (a Gobur) and have just got back from a week in the lake
district. Fill tank, drive there, potter around for most of the week, fill tank for return journey even though it still was half full, drive home. DS4
180 bhp 2.0l hdi with EAT 6 auto box, 55 mpg solo and 41 to 45 mpg towing. Now let me compare that to electric - recharge every 100 miles!!!. I think
diesel is exactly the right choice Mr Whippy, well done!
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 26/5/25 at 09:19 AM |
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Well one of the main reasons to go for a diesel is to tow my trailer tent. We used to have a CMax diesel which when it worked was tremendous however
it was constantly having engine issues, most that needed diagnostic programming, then the dual mass clutch went and I got rid of it. This car has none
of those things as it's just a mechanical metered old school engine.
Yes the car is technically old, however I expect to be able to put on at least 200k if I look after it and keep it for about 15-20 years. Off course
it's all paid for too.
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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smart51
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| posted on 26/5/25 at 05:09 PM |
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Depreciation is only a bad thing if you buy new. It makes great second hand buys. I bought a Renault Zoe about 7 years ago. 3.5 years old, £4,100.
I dread to think how much depreciation that was for the seller. I sold it when it was 6 years old for £4,100. Not only that, being an EV, I charged
it up at work for free. Best bargain I ever bought.
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JoelP
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| posted on 26/5/25 at 09:32 PM |
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I was shocked the other day to find that you can lease a Renault Kangoo Ze for £150 a month. Roughly 5k over 2 years with the deposit, for a van that
would apparently cost nearly 40k. If depreciation is so bad, how can they afford to do that?! They're not getting 35k after 2 years.
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bi22le
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| posted on 26/5/25 at 10:45 PM |
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I have both a modern-ish diesel (2020 A5 coupe) and an EV (2022 Pug 208e)
They both have their place in our household.
A5:
- My car
- Family long distance and holidays
- Tows the kit car
- Hits 80mpg on a good run and tows the striker at 45mpg
- Luxury
- Comfortable
- Looks good (to me the best looking car on the road)
208e:
- Wife's car
- She is happy driving a small car and she really likes it (she does not like cars or driving)
- I use it for 140mile round trip to work twice a week and have free charging at the office (we are on an EV energy contract and pay 10p / Kw to
charge
- lane assist and adaptive cruise control
- Looks cool and cute
We bought both of them outright at 2 years old so we are at the mercy of depreciation. We dont mind too much as we will keep them for a good 10 years
or until they die. We dont like loans and keep the household bottom line expenditure to a minimum. . . .
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 27/5/25 at 06:18 AM |
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From what I have seen and I'm no expert, with an EV after about 10 years you are then faced with a bill (if you want to keep using it), that is
equivalent to just replacing the whole engine and gearbox on a normal car and so what you have is a car that will economically last about a third to a
quarter of that of a good quality ice car.
I mean in my case, a replacement Leaf battery was quoted as between £5000 (30kwh) - £8000 (64kwh), yet the car is currently valued at only 4k. I could
say sod it I will save this car at all costs and get it done and I end up with a really nice car, possibly with almost twice the range when new. But
then again I have just got a whole replacement car for just half the cost of the 63kwh battery and it fits my requirements better.
My disclaimer is - this is just my case and for you it could be completely different in what works and much of this might not apply in the slightest.
But for me EV no longer makes any sense and I will probably never have one again, although as a car I thought EV's in general were fantastic for
what the specific role they are good at.
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/5/25 at 12:45 PM |
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There's should be some decent scrap value for the old battery to be fair.
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JMW
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| posted on 27/5/25 at 07:51 PM |
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Is there a market for batteries at their end of life?
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smart51
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| posted on 27/5/25 at 08:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JMW
Is there a market for batteries at their end of life?
The end of the car's life is not necessarily the end of the battery's life.
People on here buy all kinds of parts from cars that have been scrapped.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 27/5/25 at 10:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JMW
Is there a market for batteries at their end of life?
Depends on how depleted it is, might be useless for moving a car but could be used as home storage. The leafs battery consists of several cans with
pouch cells and can easily be dismantled and repurposed. Unlike more modern EVs like Tesla who glue the whole thing into one big block which is much
harder to work on. Funny enough I bought three can modules for powering my model boats, they are quite cheap off eBay (£35) and super convenient.
Replacement battery's tend to be from written off cars rather than from the manufacturers as they just don't stock them for long. I looked
into swapping the battery myself but although possible still needed reprogramming to match the battery to the car and some extra control modules.
However working with such high voltage stuff when I'm not electrician and the potential for it being one big firebomb if I screwed up ruled that
out. Major work on EVs seems to be well outside the scope of almost all DIY mechanics sadly which probably means they will never last very long,. I
mean how many first generation Leafs do you see now? There are only about four in Aberdeen.
Tbh the fire issue seems to have been miss reported and is actually quite a bit higher than originally claimed. Plus a lithium fire is quite unlike
any other fuel. No fire extinguisher is going to make the slightest difference.
[Edited on 27/5/25 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Benzine
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| posted on 28/5/25 at 05:17 PM |
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the fuel is now much more expensive than petrol, roadtax is only going to go up for them, they require more expensive maintenance (especially if used
for short journeys) plus how will they hold their value against other options like petrol or EV... I think the arguments to go diesel are getting very
thin.
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roadrunner
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| posted on 29/5/25 at 08:10 AM |
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I've purchased an Audi E Tron 55, after crashing my brilliant Q7.
Only had the car 5 weeks. We are currently in Cornwall for the week. It's a 360 mile trip with no experience of using the super fast chargers
and the cottage not having an EV charger.
Roof box and gravel bike fitted on the roof and the boot full of luggage. My daughter and her BF following behind in his 4 year old Fiesta.
After an hour, the Fiesta's cluth failed on the M1 just next to Woodhall services.
Managed to get their luggage in mine somehow, and two extra passengers and set off on the rest of the journey.
We stopped every 150 miles or so for coffee or breakfast and charged at the same time.
The car was excellent and charging very simple. I did notice a difference between busy motorways and quiet ones. The drag from passing traffic made
the car more efficient.
The car was £73000 brand new and payed less than £21000 three years later with 40000 on the clock.
It's fast, really smooth and a dream to drive.
It's a keeper.
Definitely the future.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 29/5/25 at 09:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
the fuel is now much more expensive than petrol, roadtax is only going to go up for them, they require more expensive maintenance (especially if used
for short journeys) plus how will they hold their value against other options like petrol or EV... I think the arguments to go diesel are getting very
thin.
Well the only kind of diesel I'd entertain is one of the old gen ones, they have very few things to go wrong although cannot match the mpg of
more modern engines. However if the diesel engine becomes economically unviable, either due to fuel or tax reasons. I'll just shove in a Ka
engine since the engine management on this car is super basic, so swaps are a cinch.
One of the first things I did check was the road tax but it was not as much as I expected tbh
Diesel Primera - Vehicle Tax Amount Paid: GBP 378.00
Wife's Meriva 1.6 petrol - Vehicle Tax Amount Paid: GBP 220.50
I was out last night seeing if any of my model ships fitted inside, blown away as even my 3m long one fits!
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Benzine
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| posted on 29/5/25 at 06:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
the fuel is now much more expensive than petrol, roadtax is only going to go up for them, they require more expensive maintenance (especially if used
for short journeys) plus how will they hold their value against other options like petrol or EV... I think the arguments to go diesel are getting very
thin.
Well the only kind of diesel I'd entertain is one of the old gen ones, they have very few things to go wrong although cannot match the mpg of
more modern engines. However if the diesel engine becomes economically unviable, either due to fuel or tax reasons. I'll just shove in a Ka
engine since the engine management on this car is super basic, so swaps are a cinch.
One of the first things I did check was the road tax but it was not as much as I expected tbh
Diesel Primera - Vehicle Tax Amount Paid: GBP 378.00
Wife's Meriva 1.6 petrol - Vehicle Tax Amount Paid: GBP 220.50
I was out last night seeing if any of my model ships fitted inside, blown away as even my 3m long one fits!
Sorry I was just quoting you
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JoelP
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| posted on 29/5/25 at 07:33 PM |
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Oof.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 29/5/25 at 08:11 PM |
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and if you read that in context of the post (tegwin asking if he should buy a Skoda Yeti diesel for his sister) I still stand by it, I think it was
good advice.
linky
Lower down I also said "If your sticking to motorways doing huge mileages a year a diesel is the way to go, otherwise stay clear."
That is exactly why I went for an old 1999 Diesel and would never touch any modern one with a bargepole after the last CMax diesel fiasco where I lost
a lot of money just when I could not afford it and had to borrow from my folks to help us through, all down to diesel engine problems that financially
wrote off the car. Modern diesels absolutely suck with all the crap they added for emissions and those stupid dual mass flywheels.
Cars are a compromise as is whatever makes them move. I need a tow car, EV's are useless for that even ones well outside my budget. I also wanted
a larger older car to carry my model ships and I like older cars but the old petrol's only get about 25-30mpg. Diesel was the best choice for
me.
The original reason for my thread was not to have a go at EV's but why in my case I ended up swapping to an old Diesel car and to also mention
the high cost of sorting the battery range which made me give up on the Leaf despite everything else about it being brilliant.
So yes, road tax for diesel is higher, I'm hoping my cars age negates this a bit compared to modern one (it also isn't LEZ compliant but I
know other roads I can use in the city). The price for diesel is quite a bit higher than petrol, however as so many commercial vehicles depend on it
there is only so much they can put it up till they hurt businesses. As for deprecation, hmm diesel/EV probably as bad as each other at the moment,
neither one is good. The Leaf was £37k when new, 8 years later its worth only £4k, with just 50k miles 70% SOH FFS that's dreadful!
Better just using the bus if you can.
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Benzine
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| posted on 29/5/25 at 08:19 PM |
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Just trolling Mr W Totally agree with you on the mechanical diesels! On moderns when an injector is "coded to the engine", ffs! I still
get mechanical injectors from the scrapyard (although getting harder to come by!) I still have my Yeti (owned since 23k and now at 160k with no major
issues) and my next car will either be old school diesel (I like peugeot/citroen xud powered cars as I'm so familiar with the engines) or an EV.
With my Yeti I'm terrified it develops a big problem before I get rid of it as it'll be too expensive to fix. If it's an old Peugeot
405/306 I'll be able to sort it cheap.
I still see so many first gen Leafs on the road. Before 2014 they had crap batteries, 2014 and on they improved a lot, but Nissan still didn't
have any form of heat management (and I believe they didn't in the 2nd gen, I may be wrong).
My friend's Dad has just got a Dacia Spring. It's so quirky looking in the flesh, I love it. It was £12k brand new! Not that I could afford
that, but good to see a cheap new EV.
[Edited on 29-5-2025 by Benzine]
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 29/5/25 at 09:54 PM |
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That's unusual for you 
My wife's face dropped when I told her I was selling the Leaf to my mum, she absolutely hates the Meriva I got her, which I half expect her to
drive it into a wall to get rid of it. If finances allow at the time I might splurge and buy a BWD Dolphin Surf (Seagull) for her, when it arrives in
the UK, it's ideal and looks like a total bargain.
On a side note, I'm currently a city bus driver again and am using both the old diesel and the new electric busses. The performance differences
between them are huge but everyone is wondering how they will work in winter. They had to redesign the routes and timetables to cope with their
limited range, then we are taking them back to the depot for charging part way through the day. But the diesels run from 6am to midnight. Even then in
this hot weather they are getting down to about 50%, I took one back at 37% last week. The recharge is about 6 hours so it's a problem but they
have now put in so much charging infrastructure everything is going EV. They even installed a driver monitoring device to encourage us to drive
smoothly and not race about with these fast busses. I floor it when I'm returning to the depot their fast!
We also have about 10 hydrogen buses, these have been a total disaster. Seems that no one thought to check if there was sufficent supply and they have
not moved at all in a year! At £500,000 each! Depending on who you speak to, they may be going back to the factory to be rebuilt as EV busses, what a
screw up. I also notice at the hydrogen hub near me three hydrogen cars, with rusty brake discs, I guess these are not being used either.
Yeah that coded parts thing, what a total scam. They now have gearboxes, electric steering coded too, I was speaking to an auto electrician recently
and he was struggling to code a vans window regulator! Just another way to stop people fixing their own cars. John Deere has been doing it to farmers
for years, I think they are being sued by the federal trade commission over it.
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 4/6/25 at 04:00 PM |
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Sadly, my wife has reverted to a petrol car - this was due to having a number of accidents in EVs. In many ways she loved her EVs (she's had 2)
but the main issue was, if you're a bit heavy-footed in reverse, the car will leap backwards and you'd have to be very quick to catch it in
a confined space.
Every EV I've driven (5 so far) will attempt to go as fast in reverse as they can go forward; there's no differentiation in power levels
between forward and reverse. I have tried to teach her about letting the EV creep backwards like any other automatic, but she never got the hang of
it (not always, anyway).
If you drive a manual or automatic petrol/diesel car, reverse is always a very low gear and you'd have to thrash it to go fast. EV's really
need an option in the driving setup menus to select reduced power in reverse - say 'limit to 10% maximum power when going backwards' - or
simply limit the power by default.
Another issue was a stupid 'direction selector' on her last car - a Dacia Spring - push forward to go backwards, and pull backwards to go
forward. The control was poorly labelled and completely non-intuitive. As I said, I've driven 5 EVs and countless conventional automatics and
they'll all had sensible controls, but I always had to hesitate and think hard when I drove the Spring. It was always 'operate the control,
then look at the display to confirm what I've got'. My Kia Niro has a clearly-labelled rotary control and I no longer have to thing about
what I'm selecting - anti-clockwise is reverse, middle is neutral, clockwise is drive, no issue. Hyundai are similarly sensible, with a set of
buttons on the centre console - R, D, N and P. No ambiguity at all.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 5/6/25 at 10:47 AM |
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Totally agree, and stupidly it's nothing more than just coding the car correctly. Even the runaway Tesla's when people accidently press the
wrong pedal have no excuse, especially when the car knows it's location and local speed restrictions. Safe limits need to be set as default by
the manufactures and to go outside them you should have to select that option.
As for the controls, I drive EV busses and just like the engine ones have just three light up buttons on the dash, D N R, that's all you need.
The Leaf also has a stick shift thing for selection drive, total waste of space and takes up a large part of the car for what could have been some
buttons next to the dials.
Can't say I am missing any of the tech with this old car, it's much less distracting. I even have a cassette player which is really cool as
I have found some old 'Now That's What I Call Music' in the loft, they still work fine
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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