NS Dev
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 12:41 AM |
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"Illegal Substances"
Right, just been reading the "smoking ban" thread(s) and thought I'd throw this one out to the masses for a bit of fun.
Why exactly are some drugs illegal and some not, and who in their infinite wisdom decided which should and should not be illegal.
To take two examples, Tobacco and Ecstasy................................
Why is one so illegal and the other perfectly legal.................................
look into the stats regarding deaths (not the propaganda, the actual stats!!!)and ask yourself some questions.
Then compare the latter with alcohol and ask the same questions again............
I will say no more on my views on the subject just yet, I'll hand over to everybody else and see what happens!..............
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Benzine
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 12:49 AM |
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Alcohol and cigarettes are taxed. I suppose they are socially accepted and the effects of alcohol (in moderation) and nicotine aren't really
obvious at all (i.e. doesn't make someone hallucinate)
Mind altering drugs make you realise we are being shafted everyday of our lives  Governments wouldn't like that
[Edited on 16/2/06 by Benzine]
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 01:09 AM |
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as above mind bending drugs
(saying that some people are just as bad after a few drinks)
I just love em one the once was outside local shop Id never even Met him before he was obviously fuelled Up on everything and decided he could fight
me I didnt even say anything to him..never looked at him etc etc
But he had what was coming to him So I knocked him down and he stayed there!
all these little fools who have adrink/drugs etc and change there attitude ie suddenly become nasty etc
Id like to leave them with some proper Shizo's at St Margarets that'd soon change there attitude on Life.....
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Surrey Dave
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 08:00 AM |
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Deceased American comedian Bill Hicks, did a great routine about substances.
Noting that the good drugs (alcohol and nicotine) where 'taxable", and the bad drugs (cannabis lsd etc) where not taxable also that never
had there been an instance of people on Cannabis committing vandalism or fighting, he said it was not possible after a spliff .
I've never heard of a bunch of drug crazed hippies kicking shop windows in.........
Having said that, I work in the mental health services and have 1st hand experience of all the mayhem that both legal and illegal substances cause.
Cannabis does not suit everybody, and has been shown to trigger certain menta illnesses..............
[Edited on 16/2/06 by Surrey Dave]
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smart51
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 08:05 AM |
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newer drugs are tested for safety. Things like asprin and morphene are given safe maximum doses based on experimental data. Extacy, was tested for
"legitamate" use and was found to be unsuitable, even as a prescription only drug.
Alcohol has been used for millenia. Not all that long ago it was drunk because ground / river water could not be relied upon to be clean and safe to
drink. Alcohol has been tested and does have a prescribed maximum dose. Few people stick to it. For information, it is no more than 4 units in 1
day for a woman, 5 for a man, for no more than 5 consecutive days without a 2 day period of abstenance.
Tobacco has a zero safe maximum use.
Canabis is inteesting in that it is harmful to health in its common state but an extract is being used to treat MS on an experimental basis. We will
soon have a prescription canabinoid drug for this purpose if the trials go well.
Sorry to be all sensible and potentially spoil a good arguement.
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02GF74
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 08:31 AM |
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I've pondered that too; why should anyone, e.g. ythe government decide what we can or cannot pump into our own bodies?
In Victorian times, opium was smoked comonly (read any Sherlock holmes novel) and up to about the 20's coco cola contained cocaine (pretty sure
it's not a myth).
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 08:36 AM |
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no no no, that's the sort of answer I was interested Smart51!
The daft propaganda makes any sensible discussion impossible normally!!!
Yea, the mental health considerations are the things that have concerned me, certainly a real danger with overuse.
Having said that, overuse of alcohol and tobacco is hardly conducive to healthy living!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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RazMan
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 09:32 AM |
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The dilemma with alcohol & tobacco is mainly taxation & addiction. Yes, it is harmful, but the government earns so much in taxes that the
economy would probably collapse overnight if either one were banned.
Cannabis has been on the fringe of legality for decades and I think that the government is seriously considering the legalisation of it so that it can
capitalise on the taxes it could impose.
I also have connections with the mental health service and have personal experience with its influence in psychotic depression.
Like any drug, in small doses they can be harmless in most cases, harmful in some cases, and catastrophic in a few cases. It just depends on the
catagory that you fall into.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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smart51
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 09:38 AM |
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daft propaganda? Canabis has been shown to be twice as carcinogenic as tobacco, though not as adictive. I'm talking about data here not
opinion.
Small quantities of alcohol have been shown to be benificial to health. No quantity of tobacco is safe.
There is a popular liberal attitude that says that you should be alowed to do whatever you like to yourself so long as it doesn't affect others.
I am broadly inclined to agree, especially the "doesn't harm others" bit. Some say that E doesn't harm others and that it is
only danerous if you get a bad batch. OK. SENSIBLE use of alcohol is also safe and social. Overdosing on paracetemol is more dangerous than
overdosing on alcohol but whenever a smoking ban is discussed, someone whinges about alcohol but never paracetomol. What about heroine or crack. Are
you sure that one person being a wasted addict doesn't affect anyone else?
Smoking does affect others, whether you smoke tobacco or other stuff. regardless of the effect on the user, it is wrong to do something that affects
the health of other people, without their consent.
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nitram38
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 10:11 AM |
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I think that the reason tobacco has not been banned......yet, is because it has been around hundreds of years before we realised the damage. I
remember that it was not until the early seventies that it was labelled with health warnings.
You cannot just withdraw this drug quickly, there would be rioting!
People are gradually being weened off it, by it's high price and the gradual social pressure, but it will take time.
Canabis has been regarded (by those who take it) as a harmless drug. I think that this is untrue if it is smoked, as there are still poisons.
Most addictive drugs damage you. The effects created in the body are caused by the body producing chemicals to combat these poisons.
I have watched my cousin slowly move through these 'soft' drugs until paranoia set in and then he became a secret drinker.
He was 2 weeks older than me and up until our teens, were inseperable.
He died 2 years ago, 2 months before his 40th birthday, after his weak liver could not handle normal doses of paracetamol that he was taking for a
cold.
I watched a thin man baloon into this swollen person that I could not recognise, while his organs shut down one by one. It took 2 weeks for him to
die.
Drugs of any kind have a slow effect on people. The ones who take them think that they do not.
All I can say is, I am still here and my cousin is not.
[Edited on 16/2/06 by nitram38]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 10:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
daft propaganda? Canabis has been shown to be twice as carcinogenic as tobacco, though not as adictive. I'm talking about data here not
opinion.
I wasn't talking about your answer, just that it's extremely unusual to actually hear facts on this subject!
I'm all ears!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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DorsetStrider
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 10:58 AM |
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At the risk of hijacking the thread...
I'm a smoker and am seriously concerned about the new smaoking bans. Not just because it affects me directly... but because I firmly beleive
that if we let this one through the next one on the goverments list will be alchole... You've all seen and heard the rethoric about bing
drinking and considering the nanny state that we all agree this country has become does anyone seriously think they won't consider banning
booze?
As for the question at hand... Personally I think that so long as it harms no one else then someone should be allowed to do whatever they like to/with
their bodies. Although I would also say that anyone that takes any halucinagenic substance should really take a look at their lives. People turn to
drugs as a means of escapism. Drugs will not solve any problems only you can do that.
Who the f**K tightened this up!
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:05 AM |
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thyeve just bought in later opening times in pubs
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Messenjah
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:06 AM |
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" it is no more than 4 units in 1 day for a woman, 5 for a man,"
just out of curiosity is this based on ther average man of 5"10 (i beleive) and 75.79 kg
surely someone with extra body weight and size has more blood for the alchohol to be absorbed in so can injest more alchohol before it becomes
"unsafe"
just a thought
because although im 17 and cannot legally drink and would neve r indulge in underage drinking honest  it interests me that there can be a safe
"limit" and surely someone under the weight of the average man this "limit" would have more of an effect. theres a big
difference in the effect 4 units would have on a 10 stone skinny "chav" to the effect it would have on me being 20.5 stone which is
pretty much nothing ....
hehe
since smoking is voluntary and it has been proven that it shortens peoples lives do you not think selling cigarettes to people is assisted suicide
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RazMan
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:30 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DorsetStrider
I would also say that anyone that takes any halucinagenic substance should really take a look at their lives. People turn to drugs as a means of
escapism. Drugs will not solve any problems only you can do that.
But surely the same must be said for nicotine - it might not be a hallucogenic but it certainly still wrecks lives and is probably the biggest
addiction problem in the world next to alcohol.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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smart51
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:30 AM |
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The number of units that is safe for an individual wll vary. I don't think that weight is a particular variable, so much as liver capacity.
Ethnic origin has also been shown to be a contributory factor but this isn't widley publicised for some reason. Welsh people are more likely to
be sensitive to alcohol, aparently, than other European groups.
It is the same with all other substances. Some people are more tollerant to paracetamol than others. A single prescribed limit is published for
simplicity.
How many drinkers stick to the 4 or 5 units in 1 day limit? Lets say that a few people can manage 6 units without causing liver damage, or even 7.
What proportion of drinkers stick even to that limit?
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:33 AM |
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So let me get this straight....
It's ok for anyone to shoot up heroin because they are only harming themselves?
Err which planet are some of you people from?
How do these people then feed their habit?
A little robbery perhaps?
Then of course there are the discarded needles.....
But it's ok they're only harming themselves....Not the innocent kids who step on them on the beach...The cleaners who have to remove
hundreds a night from public toilets...
Oh but of course stoned hippies don't harm anyone...Yea right...
The illegal drug trade doesn't use up huge ammounts of police resource... Doesn't actually harm anyone...
Come on guys think of the BIG picture not tiny isolated bits and pieces.
The fact is we are not becoming a "nanny" state in these areas. We are becoming less morally responsible as individuals and therefore laws
have to be made to protect the innocent majority from the harmfull effects caused to them by an uncaring minority.
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!! 
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smart51
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RazMan
But surely the same must be said for nicotine ... is probably the biggest addiction problem in the world next to alcohol.
Nicotine adiction is an immesurably larger problem than alcohol adiction. All regular smokers are adicted. Only a few alcoholics are addicted.
Tobacco is adictive after the first couple of uses. Alcohol takes repeated overdosing over a prolonged time before it becomes a compusion.
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ditchlewis
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:38 AM |
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please dont dismiss this answer it has a point at the end
I have just discovered that my son is addicted to computer and video games in the true sense of addiction  
he had spent the day sitting on the sofa staring into space as he has been banned from the ps2 for his deteriorating behavour.
when asked what he spent his time thinking about, his reply was "the games and how i won or lost and how i could do things differently" he
also has the physical with drawl symptoms (the dt's). my ex wife is metally ill with an obsessive behavour that he has inherited.
so when reserching addiction they are now thinking that it is not the drugs that are addictive but the persons nature that makes them more prone to
addiction.
so the way i see it is that the powers that be are trying to protect the vunerable rather than the strong and as there cannot be one rule for one and
one for every one else then everone has to be stopped.
Ditch
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DorsetStrider
At the risk of hijacking the thread...
I'm a smoker and am seriously concerned about the new smaoking bans. Not just because it affects me directly... but because I firmly beleive
that if we let this one through the next one on the goverments list will be alchole... You've all seen and heard the rethoric about bing
drinking and considering the nanny state that we all agree this country has become does anyone seriously think they won't consider banning
booze?
As for the question at hand... Personally I think that so long as it harms no one else then someone should be allowed to do whatever they like to/with
their bodies. Although I would also say that anyone that takes any halucinagenic substance should really take a look at their lives. People turn to
drugs as a means of escapism. Drugs will not solve any problems only you can do that.
With regard to solving problems, I completely agree, but with regard to "escapism", there's a fine line between this and
"enrichment"........?
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:41 AM |
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If you really want to know the facts about the addictiveness of nicotine read Allen Carr's book "How To Stop Smoking The Easy Way".
Fascinating reading. It explains lots of things about the tobacco habit. He maintains that it isn't really addictive at all... It's just a
habit... It can't be an addiction as you get no physical withdrawal symptems when you stop...
Edit
Apart from becomming a fat bastard of course
[Edited on 16-2-06 by BKLOCO]
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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NS Dev
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:44 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ditchlewis
I have just discovered that my son is addicted to computer and video games in the true sense of addiction
he had spent the day sitting on the sofa staring into space as he has been banned from the ps2 for his deteriorating behavour.
when asked what he spent his time thinking about, his reply was "the games and how i won or lost and how i could do things differently" he
also has the physical with drawl symptoms (the dt's). my ex wife is metally ill with an obsessive behavour that he has inherited.
so when reserching addiction they are now thinking that it is not the drugs that are addictive but the persons nature that makes them more prone to
addiction.
so the way i see it is that the powers that be are trying to protect the vunerable rather than the strong and as there cannot be one rule for one and
one for every one else then everone has to be stopped.
Ditch
Sorry to hear about that, and fully agree with what you are saying, does make sense taken in that context. Only thing then is that Nicotine is MUCH
worse than most illegal drugs when it comes to preying on the weak! I guess the answer there is on a post further up, you can't just ban it
because it's use is too prolific perhaps?
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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BKLOCO
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 11:47 AM |
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ditchlewis. We should maybe have a chat sometime your situation sounds remarkably similar to mine in lots of ways.
Sorry, off topic there
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!!!
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ditchlewis
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 12:01 PM |
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I totally agree about nicotine
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
quote:
Originally posted by ditchlewis
I have just discovered that my son is addicted to computer and video games in the true sense of addiction
he had spent the day sitting on the sofa staring into space as he has been banned from the ps2 for his deteriorating behavour.
when asked what he spent his time thinking about, his reply was "the games and how i won or lost and how i could do things differently" he
also has the physical with drawl symptoms (the dt's). my ex wife is metally ill with an obsessive behavour that he has inherited.
so when reserching addiction they are now thinking that it is not the drugs that are addictive but the persons nature that makes them more prone to
addiction.
so the way i see it is that the powers that be are trying to protect the vunerable rather than the strong and as there cannot be one rule for one and
one for every one else then everone has to be stopped.
Ditch
Sorry to hear about that, and fully agree with what you are saying, does make sense taken in that context. Only thing then is that Nicotine is MUCH
worse than most illegal drugs when it comes to preying on the weak! I guess the answer there is on a post further up, you can't just ban it
because it's use is too prolific perhaps?
My ex wife (Adams Mum) as well as her mental illness is addicted to cigarrets and smokes 80+ per day, and smokes to the exclusion of all else.
this is the main reason that Adam will not even talk to her let alone see her.
nicotine can destroy lives and relationships, and i am not talking about cancer....
ditch
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Jumpy Guy
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 12:21 PM |
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I'm a firm advocate of legalising everything. I think that Tobacco, Drink Drugs are all bad for you. everyone knows this.
As are bacon butties, McDonalds, high speed driving, etc etc etc
More deaths in Scotland from Diet, lack of excercise than from drugs
Legalising it doesnt mean that people can shoot up in front of you or your kids.
We have waste bins, recycle bins, garden bins, so we can have sharps bins. The infrastructure to deal with syringes already exists.
discuss....
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