Phil. S
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 12:05 PM |
|
|
Vx cooling
I have a 20XE which runs at around 80-90 under all condition except on track, where it climbs to aroun 100 degrees in about 10 minutes. My first
question is: Is this too high? (I run with Mobil 1, 15/50 oil and do not go above 6,000rpm).
Second, if it is too high, what can I do to get the temperature down? I have changed from an escort to a Polo rad, and have changed the thermostat for
a 84 degree one. Others I have asked have suggested getting rid of the header tank and replace with a swirl pot. Others have suggested removing the
thermostat. But no one seems to agree on whether these changes would make any difference. I don't want to spend £80 on a swirl pot only to find
that the problem persists.
[Edited on 25/9/06 by Phil. S]
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
|
|
graememk
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 12:17 PM |
|
|
i'd of thought more air or directional air in the rad and maybe an oil cooler
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 12:57 PM |
|
|
You could try using a "Water Wetter" I've heard good reports but not tried it myself.
Other than that can't see a swirlpot making any difference, you would need to change the size/cooling capacity of the rad or get more air
thro' it - frequently just channelling the air so it can't escape & "bleed off" round the sides of the rad can make an
enormous difference.
100 deg isn't necessarily too high as long as it stays there & doesn't get any higher & is not losing any water.
[Edited on 25/9/06 by russbost]
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
ned
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 01:29 PM |
|
|
I'd start with increasing ducting to the rad - make an ally cover to stop air going round the rad so it's got to go through it. Having a
radiator tilted at a slight angle so air stalls slightly as it goes through it is meant to help a bit aswell.
After that I'd think about maybe adding a swirl pot to bleed any air out of the water system and fitting an oil cooler/sandwich plate.
If the thermostat is working correctly I wouldn't take it out personally.
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 01:43 PM |
|
|
Thanks for the tips. It sounds like ducting is the first thing to try. There is a lot of space around the rad. Has anyone a picture of a ducted nose?
Would you attach the paneling to the rad or fix it to the nose?
[Edited on 25/9/06 by Phil. S]
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
ned
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 01:57 PM |
|
|
fozzie's has ducting if she has any good pics in her archive..
-can't see any good pics inthe archive.
was at donington at the race meeting and a lot of racers used ducting so see if you can find any pics of locost or kitcar racecars?
[Edited on 25/9/06 by ned]
beware, I've got yellow skin
|
|
|
James
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 03:34 PM |
|
|
Letting the air our again after it's gone through the rad is just as important as getting it in... there's no point having a massive air
damn.
Some holes in top of bonnet or side of the car may make all the difference.
Cheers,
James
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
|
|
|
Fozzie
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 03:38 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by ned
fozzie's has ducting if she has any good pics in her archive..
-can't see any good pics inthe archive.
was at donington at the race meeting and a lot of racers used ducting so see if you can find any pics of locost or kitcar racecars?
[Edited on 25/9/06 by ned]
Always giving away me secrets Ned !!!!!!...
I will take some pics and post later.......
Fozzie 
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 03:49 PM |
|
|
Those temps sound about right. Firstly are you confident that the temps are reading correctly, if so id say nowt to worry about.
I run my Pinto between 90 - 95 on the road. It climbed to around 105 on the track. im not worried at that although i have added some extra bonnet
vents etc to help hot air to escape. It has been said that you need some heat to evaporate moisture from the oil etc. Too cool is as bad as too hot
apparently.
Adding rad shrouds etc may overcool it on the road. I recall Hellfire using builders foam after masking off certain areas, then profiling it when it
sets (check out there website for better description, i dont want to be responsible for you gluing your nose to the rad, chassis, engine etc!!)
Oil cooler sounds like interesting proposition - do they have an inbuilt thermostat that will say only pass the oil through at 90 to 95degs
upwards.
[Edited on 25/9/06 by DarrenW]
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 04:15 PM |
|
|
There should be no problem with the air getting out, as I have six large vents in the bonnet. Here's a pic of the underside:
I also have a smaller vent on either side of the engine bay.
quote:
Originally posted by James
Letting the air our again after it's gone through the rad is just as important as getting it in... there's no point having a massive air
damn.
Some holes in top of bonnet or side of the car may make all the difference.
Cheers,
James
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 04:16 PM |
|
|
Thanks Fozzie. I plomise not to show anyone else!
quote:
Originally posted by Fozzie
quote:
Originally posted by ned
fozzie's has ducting if she has any good pics in her archive..
-can't see any good pics inthe archive.
was at donington at the race meeting and a lot of racers used ducting so see if you can find any pics of locost or kitcar racecars?
[Edited on 25/9/06 by ned]
Always giving away me secrets Ned !!!!!!...
I will take some pics and post later.......
Fozzie
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 04:18 PM |
|
|
The original thermostat doesn't open fully till 102, so I did wonder whether 100 is ok. I have replaced the original thermostat though, as it
used to run at 95 all the time, which I wasn't happy with.
Ducting shouldn't affect running temperatures in normal conditions. If it goes below 84 the thermostat will close.
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Those temps sound about right. Firstly are you confident that the temps are reading correctly, if so id say nowt to worry about.
I run my Pinto between 90 - 95 on the road. It climbed to around 105 on the track. im not worried at that although i have added some extra bonnet
vents etc to help hot air to escape. It has been said that you need some heat to evaporate moisture from the oil etc. Too cool is as bad as too hot
apparently.
Adding rad shrouds etc may overcool it on the road. I recall Hellfire using builders foam after masking off certain areas, then profiling it when it
sets (check out there website for better description, i dont want to be responsible for you gluing your nose to the rad, chassis, engine etc!!)
Oil cooler sounds like interesting proposition - do they have an inbuilt thermostat that will say only pass the oil through at 90 to 95degs
upwards.
[Edited on 25/9/06 by DarrenW]
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
Fozzie
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 04:18 PM |
|
|
Pictures now in archive under 'Nose'.......
Never had any heating problems at all....
But......in winter, yes it does get a tad too much cold air, but using a bit of common sense, the rad grille is 'gaff-taped' as appropiate
(in parts of course). The rad of course is 'angled'..
The last picture, shows where the cold air is forced, after going through the appropiate air filter/box, which you can't see.
Remember hot air rises, and it is worth spending the time when you are building, to plan where your engine will go within the engine bay to enable the
air 'in' and the air 'out', and of course the route that the air takes around the engine bay.
I also think that it is worth spending money on the appropiate exhaust wrap within the engine bay, and good heat shield on the bulk head. All in my
most humble opinion of course
Fozzie
The 'shroud' is attached to the chassis, not to any part of the body work.......
[Edited on 25/9/06 by Fozzie]
[Edited on 25/9/06 by Fozzie]
'Racing is Life!...anything before or after is just waiting'....Steve McQueen
|
|
|
eagle
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 05:15 PM |
|
|
have you got an oil cooler fitted?
I hade a 16v calibra and that had an oil cooler fitted as standard equipment
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 05:49 PM |
|
|
Mine has had the oil cooler taken off at some point. I will probably fit one again at some point, but I would not have thought it would make a big
difference.
quote:
Originally posted by eagle
have you got an oil cooler fitted?
I hade a 16v calibra and that had an oil cooler fitted as standard equipment
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
the_fbi
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 06:37 PM |
|
|
If its only climbing to 100 and no further I wouldn't worry at all, as long as you know the temperature reading it correct.
My LET will hit 100 when stuck in traffic for 2 minutes although the fan will bring it back down to 95-96 quite quickly. But it'll keep bouncing
off 100 for hours on end quite happily.
15W 50 is very thick at low temps is there a reason you're running this?
Personally I'd put your oil cooler back on too, all the parts you need are on the block as standard, won't even cost £50 for new pipes,
connectors and a rad.
Reducing the oil temp will reduce the water temp too and I'd say a better place to spend your cash then worrying about 100 degree water temps.
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 10:04 PM |
|
|
Whenever I mention this problem people start telling me how to reduce temperatures, so I assumed that 100 is a bit high. But sitting in traffic at 100
is one thing. Thrashing the pants off of it at 100 is another. Also everyone I mention this to seems to run at about 80-90 on track.
I run 15/50 oil because that was recommended by everyone on the WSCC forum. And I do a lot of track days, so I wanted an oil that would cope.
I don't have the oil cooler, so would have to buy all the bits. So it wouldn't be a cheap option.
quote:
Originally posted by the_fbi
If its only climbing to 100 and no further I wouldn't worry at all, as long as you know the temperature reading it correct.
My LET will hit 100 when stuck in traffic for 2 minutes although the fan will bring it back down to 95-96 quite quickly. But it'll keep bouncing
off 100 for hours on end quite happily.
15W 50 is very thick at low temps is there a reason you're running this?
Personally I'd put your oil cooler back on too, all the parts you need are on the block as standard, won't even cost £50 for new pipes,
connectors and a rad.
Reducing the oil temp will reduce the water temp too and I'd say a better place to spend your cash then worrying about 100 degree water temps.
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
the_fbi
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 11:11 PM |
|
|
A LET suffers much more from heat soak than an XE, given that its got quite a large heater strapped to the front of the head.
Life will be much tougher for a LET on the road than an XE on the track. Higher charge temperatures, higher cylinder pressures and about twice the
bhp.
6000rpm is hardly thrashing it either.
Personally I think you'd be better off with 10W50 Silkolene Pro-S. 15 is very heavy when cold and won't be helping with wear when cold,
although it'll make you appear to have good oil pressure for a while.
£50 would buy you all the bits, new, comfortably, for an oil cooler setup. Although it depends on how your standard one was removed. That £50 includes
the radiator, pipes, male/male convertors and hose ends.
If your a WSCC member you also get 25% off from ThinkAuto (Mocal).
What is your oil pressure running at, when idle, after a few laps on the track?
That should give you a good indication on the oil cooling necessity.
quote:
Originally posted by Phil. S
Whenever I mention this problem people start telling me how to reduce temperatures, so I assumed that 100 is a bit high. But sitting in traffic at 100
is one thing. Thrashing the pants off of it at 100 is another. Also everyone I mention this to seems to run at about 80-90 on track.
I run 15/50 oil because that was recommended by everyone on the WSCC forum. And I do a lot of track days, so I wanted an oil that would cope.
I don't have the oil cooler, so would have to buy all the bits. So it wouldn't be a cheap option.
quote:
Originally posted by the_fbi
If its only climbing to 100 and no further I wouldn't worry at all, as long as you know the temperature reading it correct.
My LET will hit 100 when stuck in traffic for 2 minutes although the fan will bring it back down to 95-96 quite quickly. But it'll keep bouncing
off 100 for hours on end quite happily.
15W 50 is very thick at low temps is there a reason you're running this?
Personally I'd put your oil cooler back on too, all the parts you need are on the block as standard, won't even cost £50 for new pipes,
connectors and a rad.
Reducing the oil temp will reduce the water temp too and I'd say a better place to spend your cash then worrying about 100 degree water temps.
|
|
|
the_fbi
|
| posted on 25/9/06 at 11:28 PM |
|
|
May also be worth running some lambda monitoring for a few laps, to check you're not running a bit lean, as this will also make you run hotter
than you should.
Have you had the advance curve modified on the dizzy too, as timing being off can also affect the temperatures?
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 26/9/06 at 07:33 AM |
|
|
I went to a power run at a local RR a few months ago. The mixture is fine apart from a bit rich between 3000 and 4000rpm. Last year I had a proper
rolling road session where the dizzy was set as best possible, so that shouldn't be the cause of the problem. There was a compromise, but that
was at low revs not high.
The oil pressure is usually very good: 4.5 - 5 bar when running and around 3 bar when idle. After a track session the idle drops to about 1.5-2 bar at
tickover and 4bar when running, so still very healthy.
£50 for the oil cooler and bits! Sounds like a good investment. I thought the oil cooler itself was that. Then I'd need the sadwich plate and
pipes, so I was expecting a lot more. Does that include a thermostatically controlled sandwich plate, as I don't want the oil cooled all the
time.
Oh, and just to eliminate something else, the water pump was replaced a few months ago.
quote:
Originally posted by the_fbi
May also be worth running some lambda monitoring for a few laps, to check you're not running a bit lean, as this will also make you run hotter
than you should.
Have you had the advance curve modified on the dizzy too, as timing being off can also affect the temperatures?
[Edited on 26/9/06 by Phil. S]
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 26/9/06 at 12:25 PM |
|
|
as long as it doesn't go much over 100deg I wouldn't worry.
also how good is your gauge.
Main thing is do you have to top the ccolant up? If not, then its not blowing the pressure cap, which it will do if it gets too hot.
My grasser sits at 100deg after a couple of 440yd laps and stays between 100deg and 110 deg with no probs so far.
ps that's with the std thermostat not the 84 deg LET stat.
[Edited on 26/9/06 by NS Dev]
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 26/9/06 at 12:56 PM |
|
|
I think the thermostat is accurate. Most of the time it says 85 which is exactly what you'd expect with a 84 degree thermostat. I might replace
the header cap as a little coolant does escape on track. But the level stays fine.
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
the_fbi
|
| posted on 26/9/06 at 12:58 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Phil. S
£50 for the oil cooler and bits! Sounds like a good investment. I thought the oil cooler itself was that. Then I'd need the sadwich plate and
pipes, so I was expecting a lot more. Does that include a thermostatically controlled sandwich plate, as I don't want the oil cooled all the
time.
1/2" BSP 10/13 row cooler shouldn't cost you more than £32.
1/2" push on hose £6.45/m
1/2" BSP female for above £ 1.78
1/2" BSP male/male £ 0.92 (converts takeoff/remote head to male for hose ends)
Bonded seal washer for male/male £0.10
Those were the prices I paid last week from ThinkAuto.
Depending on what was done to your XE when the standard cooler was removed, you may need a quick trip to a scrappie for a part or 2 on the oilpump
housing but they'll be a couple of quid.
No idea what the standard XE thread is either. NS Dev will though.
|
|
|
chriscook
|
| posted on 26/9/06 at 04:59 PM |
|
|
M18 I think on the OE sandwich plate.
|
|
|
Phil. S
|
| posted on 26/9/06 at 08:44 PM |
|
|
Thanks for the info. I doubt that the local scrappy would have an XE, so is there some other Vx engine I could get one from that would fit?
quote:
Depending on what was done to your XE when the standard cooler was removed, you may need a quick trip to a scrappie for a part or 2 on the
oilpump housing but they'll be a couple of quid.
"The unexamined life is not worth living" (Socrates)
"The unlived life is not worth examining" (Kopp)
|
|
|
