DarrenW
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 09:52 PM |
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Thisoldchestnutagain - now Pinto upgrades
Ok - firstly ill apologise to those who have put up with this from me before
Winter is approaching. Tax runs out end Nov. Ins 2nd Dec. Perfect excuse to take car off the road and do some jobs.
Since the last time we spoke ive got a full magajolt kit. Also have a set of ZZR1100 carbs. I now have a compo cheque on its way and approval from
Swimbo to rebuild my Pinto. Only need bottom end doing so was thinking 2.1 conversion, lightened and balanced, £600 max budget.
Ive always wanted 160BHP at flywheel so that i have better power to weight ratio than my old M3 EVO which always gave me an adrenalin rush. I also
want better 0-60 so need to get below 5.5 secs. Not much to ask im sure.
The only problem is im now wondering if i can get 16V power for the same budget. hopefully with 160BHP starting point and easy upgrade for next
winter.
Come on then - here is the challenge. How can i realistically do it for the budget? and i'll limit the choices to Zetec or XE. Advice needs to
be all encompassing.
I guess we should also factor in if i change over ill have a nearly new pinto electronic ignition system, reasonable engine with rebuilt head and
285cam, 38DGAS and full 4 branch stainless system to sell / exchange so what is that lot worth.
Alternatively i could stop supping the Vodka!!!!!!!
Please help, yours sincerely,
Anon.
[Edited on 16/11/06 by DarrenW]
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chrsgrain
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 10:22 PM |
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Cost for me for 16V XE power was the price of the engine, plus exhaust plus 'power cap' (a smaller airbox made out of ali)....
Use the standard injection rail and injectors, ECU and engine loom - connect up the 5 wires and go!
Will mate to a Ford box with a sandwich plate - I used an omega box, but if you don't want to change 'box, then add the plate to the cost
list...
I reckon;
XE engine - £250
Exhaust - £300-400 ish
Powercap - £50
That's about £600 (ish), not sure how much the sandwich plate costs...
Chris
Spoing! - the sound of an irony meter breaking...
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skippad
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 10:22 PM |
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Hi Darren:-)
XE!! u know it makes sense!
U know how nifty my Mk is.
I think u can do it on your budget.
Engine £250 or less
Bellhousing £160
Shallow sump £145
Clutch arm and bits n bobs = £600
I'm sure your megasquirt and bike carbs
could me made to fit...
170-180bhp
0-60 4.5 secs
If u need any help give me a call
Dave
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DarrenW
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 10:26 PM |
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OMG A sensible suggestion from Mr Chris to me!!!!! am i worthy. Seriously though - Cheers Chris - i have kind of thought about that but not
really sure how to achieve it practically. Will a modern 16V engine give me a weight saving? Ive fitted light weight alloys now. Theres nowt in the
car to start with- no padding or carpets etc, its just a raw Mac#1 ZR. It will be easier to go on a diet than lighten the car
I also forgot to say that i have a set of alloys for sale that could generate some cash.
Just to clarfy ref M3 Evo power to weight challenge. Car is 321bhp and 1450kg as std = 221 bhp per tonne. My car is less than 600KG but for
calculation sake, assuming 600Kg i need at least 135bhp at flywheel to be same. So assuming my drivetrain is older and less efficient im aiming for
160bhp to be better than.
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chrsgrain
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 10:38 PM |
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Not sure about weight saving, but should give you the BHP you want, and if you could make the bike carbs fit, then much more than your target (I
think)...
Only problem with 'as GM intended' it engine is the height.... only just fits in mine. Tall bit is the injection rail and the
airbox/powercap bit....
Chris
Not sure about sandwich plate or bellhousing, think both are available.... I just went Omega 'box (£50 for 2 from scrappy!)
[Edited on 10/11/06 by chrsgrain]
Spoing! - the sound of an irony meter breaking...
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DarrenW
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 10:38 PM |
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Dave - ive sent you a text toneet. Im tempted but there are other things to consider for the budget conscious. Your car is one that inspires me.
Especially considering i should get 160 as std and then there are cam options which are relatively easy next year. Ill need new exhaust, engine
mounts, cooling system changes etc.
However im sure my engine stup with 38dgas and nearly new electronic ignition , small alternator, 285 cam, ported injection head etc etc must be worth
something. Stainless exhaust system is certainly marketable.
Yukspeed are selling sump kit for less than £100. bell housing is £160. Engine??
Will magejolt and bike carbs work with XE?
XE is what i had in mind before building the car.
Chris - tell me more..... by sandwich plate do you mean the bell housing?
Im a sceptical person by trade. Being an automotive Project Manager iam try and budget to the nth degree and determine all the hidden costs up
front.
I have to say i love the look of an XE installation. And it has to be said that a nice 16V car is worth more resale.
Come on Nat - let me know how you do it on the cheap. I need to find a cheap donor car so i can sell bits off and get the engine for nowt.
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MkIndy7
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 10:44 PM |
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A new bonnet is a another hidden cost,
Some rare dizzy from a cavalier or something can be used on the XE for a cost saving measure, although an area probably not worth skimping on!.
It sounds like your quite power hungry so you'd be better goin to throttle bodies from the off and using mega squirt for the ignition timing as
well. Espescially if your thinking of fitting different cams later as you'd have to have carbs re-jetted to suit.
It maybe worth saving that bit more and doing things right from the start, it could be cheeper in the long run!
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mookaloid
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 11:00 PM |
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Hi Darren,
If I was going to look for that kind of power today I would get
this
Great basis for even more power in the future
Cheers
Mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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DarrenW
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| posted on 10/11/06 at 11:37 PM |
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I thought about the bonnet but i could make current exhaust cut out into a air intake.
Ref ST170 i was led to believe that was a variable valve timing Zetec and a tad difficult to plumb in.
Reason i lean towards XE as opposed to xetec is they seem to take cams well to get up to 180bhp quite easily later is needed. I rarely hear of Zetec
at that level unless they have some expensive bits on. Mac#1's demo car is very very nice but my funds dont strectch to Jenveys and Omex.
For now im just looking for a sensible starting point for good power now and upgrades later.
Pinto upgrades arent wrote off, im just wary i can spend the cash to get 160BHP and there is no scope so thought id check out the options.
Am i mad???? I bet my badly set up Pinto is hardly 95 - 100bhp at wheels now. I have recorded 5.9 0-60 already (be kind to me Chris M). That is
great but i know what i need. Id love as close to 5 as poss whilst retianing CEC status.
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zetec7
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 12:53 AM |
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Zetecs on carbs tend to run around 160-175 bhp (if the dyno results I've seen are to be believed...), but a major factor is the light weight of
the Zetec. Let's see...100 lbs. less weight + 160 bhp (minimum) = Yahoooooo!!! That's why I'm doing it...plus, the motor
(mine's on 45DCOE's) looks awesome.
http://www.freewebs.com/zetec7/
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TangoMan
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 10:31 AM |
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Darren,
I am opting for a Zetec. I got a 2.0 for £100 and will use my bike carbs and megajolt (unless I can't bear the urge to go with TB's and
M'Squirt.)
There are only a few small costs involved and there is lots of info about. I plan my swap easily within your budget and will recover some funds from
selling parts.
The weight saving is substantial so will add to the performance gains and the engines are common so no problems if ever it goes pop. Also as it is a
far more efficient engine you will save on fuelling costs as a cammed up Pinto is a tad thirsty!!
I bet your Pinto is worth a few hundred and the exhaust will get lots of interest. Go on, you know it makes sense!!
Summer's here!!!!
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chriscook
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 10:52 AM |
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XE is a fantastic engine you should see 180bhp on carbs (assuming the bike ones are up to it). It may see you needing a new gearbox a std type 9
should last a while if its in good condition but if its on its way out then it'll eat it quite quickly. Here you have 2 options change gearbox
at regular intervals, or get an uprated box (quaife, tran-X, BGH)
My XE is running on a megajolt at the moment and doing rather well on it - if you want some piccies let me know. But you'll probably want to get
it mapped properly - but then you'd need carbs and ignition sorting if you tune up pinto too.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 11:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Ok - firstly ill apologise to those who have put up with this from me before
Winter is approaching. Tax runs out end Nov. Ins 2nd Dec. Perfect excuse to take car off the road and do some jobs.
Since the last time we spoke ive got a full magajolt kit. Also have a set of ZZR1100 carbs. I now have a compo cheque on its way and approval from
Swimbo to rebuild my Pinto. Only need bottom end doing so was thinking 2.1 conversion, lightened and balanced, £600 max budget.
Ive always wanted 160BHP at flywheel so that i have better power to weight ratio than my old M3 EVO which always gave me an adrenalin rush. I also
want better 0-60 so need to get below 5.5 secs. Not much to ask im sure.
The only problem is im now wondering if i can get 16V power for the same budget. hopefully with 160BHP starting point and easy upgrade for next
winter.
Come on then - here is the challenge. How can i realistically do it for the budget? and i'll limit the choices to Zetec or XE. Advice needs to
be all encompassing.
I guess we should also factor in if i change over ill have a nearly new pinto electronic ignition system, reasonable engine with rebuilt head and
285cam, 38DGAS and full 4 branch stainless system to sell / exchange so what is that lot worth.
Alternatively i could stop supping the Vodka!!!!!!!
Please help, yours sincerely,
Anon.
Hi Darren, you knew I was coming!!!
Either keep the pinto or go for the XE. You don't need cams on an XE to get 180hp, they will do that out of the box.
Yes, bike carbs and megajolt will work on the XE, I have seen it done. Are you running dizzyless megajolt or with dizzy? Either way it will still work
fine.
Bellhousing is £140 from A-frame engineeirng, use std (flat type ) clutch pressure plate with ford 2.3 diesel friction plate. Mod a cavvy 8 valve
steel sump (got one that you can have for free if you are doing the conversion, know its a good home! )
For the engine, don't buy just the motor unless its somebody you know selling it, buy a complete car (cavalier 16v or calibra 16b or astra 16v)
and break it yourself, then you can test drive it and make the money back on the rest. Expect to pay between £150 and £350 for a running car that can
be driven, check that there is no yuck in the header tank, and see if it has a coscast head (look for no core plug on the dizzy end of the head and a
big casting rib there under the dizzy)
Take the engine out, sell the box, they are worth £60 min (loads of demand from autograssers! ) sell the interior, poss the dash, the lights, bumpers,
electric aerial, they always fetch £30, then weigh the car in which should net you £50. hey presto, cheap, tested engine! They are easily good for
100k miles if maintained well. They will still have the honing marks in the bores at that mileage, and should not smoke at all. Above that they may
rattle a bit bit usually just sticking tappets (not expensive to do) my grasser engine rattles on startup and is just showing a smidge of blue smoke
after 4 years racing and 4 years in various road cars, and still makes 200hp on the rollers!!!!!!
gotta go, any questions u2u me!!!
you know it makes sense!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeR
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 12:25 PM |
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go zetec - if only to annoy the xe massive!
Either way you'll have to patch the drivers side of the car as the exhaust is going to come out on the 'correct' side 
Zetec's are more plentiful if things go wrong (ie you need a new one), slightly lighter but less powerful. It is possible to get similar power
from a zetec but you have to spend a lot more pennies to do it.
Height shouldn't be too much of an issue as the MAC1 is taller.
I've got a mid life crisis planned when i complete the car of moving to zetec - realiable 150bhp will be more than enough for me.
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TangoMan
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 12:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
realiable 150bhp will be more than enough for me.
FAMOUS LAST WORDS!!! I thought that Mike but then you start to feel that it needs that little bit more pull for overtaking, and the extra aceleration
would be nice sometimes to find a gap in traffic.
OK, I never really thought that. I always knew I would want more power.
Summer's here!!!!
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TangoMan
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 12:39 PM |
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It is suprising that no-one has jumped in yet from the BEC brigade.
Give it time!!
Summer's here!!!!
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JoelP
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 03:03 PM |
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i would've mentioned becs but darren says he only wants to talk zetec and xe
Plus i dont think a bec can be done for 600, maybe 800 though.
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Coose
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 04:05 PM |
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Darren, if you want to go down the XE route have a peek at OIOI's home-made injection. Also, Adam (Ne7er with the red Westie who comes to the
Teesside trackdays) is looking at a new project and *may* be persuaded to sell his current XE, so it may be worth talking to him? I think he has a
couple of hundred bhp at the mo and it's apparently a very sweet motor. I don't know if he's wanting to keep hold of it, but
it's maybe worth asking?
Spin 'er off Well...
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CairB
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| posted on 11/11/06 at 05:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Either way you'll have to patch the drivers side of the car as the exhaust is going to come out on the 'correct' side
No, leave the hole for when you upgrade to a Duratec.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 12/11/06 at 05:30 PM |
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OK, it is all sounding interesting and i know of at least 2 other people who are reading this with similar thoughts in mind.
Ive got quite a bit of data on the XE's, just need to get some more on the zetec for a balanced view.
Silver or black top? Im under the impression the Zetec is down on power as std, so what is reasonable to expect with decent exhaust and bike carbs. Im
not interested in new cams for now - that can wait for another winter.
How easy is the megajolt to fit - ive heard the flywheel has 36-1teeth already and a sensor.
What is needed to get the 2.0 to run, ive heard that you need a water rail but dont need bell housing. Sump modded?
Can injection be fitted and still keep within budget - bike throttle bodies etc? (bearing in mind ill have a megajolt to sell to part finance).
If you havent guessed yet im lazy so looking for a step by step guide based on practical experience.
The pros for zetec for me is - mounts and exhaust available from Mac#1, its a proven ZR install, engine cheap if i need a new one later. Cons are
power seems to be less but thats just a hunch at the mo.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 09:44 AM |
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power is definitely less. For a well set up zetec on std cams and well mapped injection (throttle bodies) expect to see around 170hp
for an XE with exactly the same induction etc expect 30hp more.
that is the difference
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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DarrenW
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 05:52 PM |
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Im starting to draw the conclusion that working on the Pinto is the way to go.
Im confident i can get 150bhp at flywheel with the bits ive got. When i get used to that i can still get better head and then throttle body injection
as future projects to raise to 175 / 180 with better driveability and economy etc. My car already spins up the wheels with std 110 ish at flywheel
(unchecked), do i really need more than 180 as a target?
150BHP is 150BHP whatever the engine is and at least i know basically everything works in my car now.
I wont need bellhousing adaptor, water rail, new cooling system, new exhaust system, re-wire the engine bay, pipes etc etc.
16V isnt out of the window just yet.
My whole aim with this car is to have over 250bhp per tonne and 0-60 in around 5.
Pinto tuning - what are your experiences, do's and donts?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 07:22 PM |
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should be able to hit 60 in 5ish with the pinto.
It'll give the critics something to think about too, which always makes it more fun!!!
Pinto tuning - twin 45's, LOTS of compression (use your mapped ignition to get round detonation), decent cam (you'll want more than the
285, they are very mild) tidy up the ports, detail work and reshaping not hacking loads out, lots in books on porting these, big valves and oh yes, 2
dowels between the flywheel and crank plus a much ligher flywheel as well, helps take the strain off the bolts which I can say from experience do let
go at inopportune moments!
After that lot you'll want better pistons, as you'll need more revs to make use of a lot more cam, the engine will get less pleasant to
live with but the std pistons don't take kindly to over 7000 revs regularly.
Also if the engine is coming apart and the rods are coming off then shot peen them while you are at it and fit ARP bolts.
Remember that lots of compression and a decent cam are key on a pinto, particularly the former.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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James R
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 08:12 PM |
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I know you said xe or zetec, but have you considered a 1.8 k series vvc? They make 160bhp as standard, or 175 from the lotus tuned brm one.
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Coose
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| posted on 15/11/06 at 08:31 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by James R
I know you said xe or zetec, but have you considered a 1.8 k series vvc? They make 160bhp as standard, or 175 from the lotus tuned brm one.
175 bhp for a week, until the head gasket goes....
Spin 'er off Well...
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