Jon Ison
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:33 AM |
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Highways traffic officer ?
I guess your all used too seeing them now but..........
What I cant get my head around is the reasoning behind the way they park on hard shoulders.......
Always pointing out into the carriageway, maybe I'm missing something but I always thought the school of thought was too point your car and turn
your wheels towards the verge, just in case you got a smack up the rear, your car would naturally go towards the verge rather than be potentially
knocked back onto the motorway into moving traffic ?
What am I missing here ?
Also (rant time) incidents seem too take longer too sort these days, I'm sure they have a sweep stake too see who can generate the longest tail
backs..........
Also last night been another perfect example coming back from Andover passed 3 sets of matrix signs showing 50 & 40 mph, incident, accident &
animals in road only too drive past about 4-5 of them too see nothing then an "end" sign lit up, then they wonder why people take no
notice of the signs........
More rants too follow.......
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nludkin
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:40 AM |
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A mate of mine took a driving examiners test a few years back and he has told me on numerous occasions that you should aim the front wheels towards
the verge in a rear shunt / dangerous situation. Which does seem a very logical thing to do!
Maybe they want maximum visibility of their vehicle signage? In an Eric Cartman(Respect My Authoritay!) kinda way?
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Howlor
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:43 AM |
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Same as turnign right at a junction, I was always taught to keep the wheels straight ahead until you start to move. That way if you get shunted your
not going head on into the opposite lane.
Steve
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Guinness
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:46 AM |
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Don't get me started on this lot. Last week I got caught up in a massive jam on the A1. They closed it and diverted all the southbound traffic
off at Leeming Services. The slip road ends at a T-Junction onto the local roads.
Two lanes of A1 traffic merge into one and approach the T-Junction. At the junction parked across it, a Highways Officer 4x4, blocking nearly all
visibility, and two officers standing in the road trying to control the flow of traffic by waving their arms. All well and good, but because they
didn't have a diversion sign and an arrow, almost everyone who came down the slip road stopped and asked them which way to go. Hence massive
delays.
Arse.
Mike
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nick205
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:48 AM |
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I suspect they do it to increase the visible area of the vehicle to approaching drivers. However with flashing lights and an illuminous rear end this
seems pointless to me. I agree, I was always taught to point the vehicle away from potential danger.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:49 AM |
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Yup spot on,
Passed a broken indicator incident on the A1 at Grantham, luckily I was going in opposite direction............
There was a 4 mile tail back behind it, no injuries etc..... GET THE CARS OFF THE CARRIDGWAY and get traffic moving.
I appreciate in some situations this is not possible but in a lot it is, in the States they get the bull bars out and push them off, time we did it
her.
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scottc
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 11:00 AM |
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passed a matrix sign on the A1 last week
"50 - queue ahead"
next sign
"40 - queue ahead"
next one
"50 - queue ahead"
"40 - queue ahead"
aarrgghhh where is the F...... queue then!?!
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oliwb
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 11:30 AM |
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Funny we don't have highways officers in Scotland....have seen them once or twice when I've been south of the boarder....I imagine its
this governments "cheap" solution to not having more traffic cops. Hasn't caught on in Scotland yet which is great! Oli.
If your not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room!
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vinny1275
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 01:03 PM |
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Maybe it makes it safer for them to get cones, etc., out of the back of the wagon. I've only been stuck on the hard shoulder once (with my old
Mini), and every time an artic thundered past it was pretty hairy (especially when one of them had his n/s wheels inside the hard shoulder!!).
I'm not sure I'd like to *have* to park on the hard shoulder each day, but I think I'd still point the wheels to the verge....
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Kissy
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 01:22 PM |
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We should feel sorry for them, they've only got half a dozen cones to play with + no guns + no authority.
Just joking - f**king rolling road blocks. Good fun buzzing 'em at ninety though.
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lsdweb
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 01:29 PM |
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Fend off position? Designed to giove maximum vehicle visibility of the vehicle and , therefore, making it safer to work. There are loads of
variatiuons on this.
I have rear mounted red / blue LED flashers and if you can't see those from a mile away you shouldn't be driving!!
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BenB
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 02:11 PM |
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The reason why you see signs all the time saying "Queue caution 40mph" for about twelve million miles when there isn't a queue is
that it allows any Gatsos or mobile units to nick you if you're doing more than that 
Who controls the speed limit caution signs? Same people as get the money when they nick you for doing 41mph on a carriageway you could safely do 70mph
on.... Suddenly it all becomes clear.................
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benji106
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 03:15 PM |
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I got done doing 60 on the m4 when the 50 signs where out, no apparant reason for it, and i was on the inside lane just keeping up with the flow of
traffic, sent a letter having a bit of a rant and havent heard from them since, apart from an automatically generated letter saying they were looking
into it. so is there a 'time out' limit? its been about 3 months.
cheers
-Everything in excess-
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Jimbo
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:28 PM |
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Ok guys, I'm obviously best placed to answer this one for you, as i'm one of them! granted I'm in a control room, not out on the
road, but I know the answers that you're looking for.
Fend off position; usually with the patrol vehicle pointing slightly outwards towards the live lane. this is to give a more "fuller"
vision of the patrol vehicle to on coming traffic, and also to make drivers think that it may just be about to pull out, therefore it should slow them
down, or at least take more notice.
Closing motorways; The last thing we want to do is close the motorway, in fact our job is to try to get it moving as fast as possible, but if
there's a serious accident, then the police take over (obviously!) and our patrols are put on the sliproads to enforce the closure, or
you'd get every Tom, Dick and Harry going through it. (12 months ago, one night, we had some fairly bad fog in our area, we hadn't started
to do night patrols at the time, and although we had the electronic signs on saying that the m/way was closed, some drivers took no notice and
continued on blindly at stupid speeds, adding to what started as a 3 car bump, resulted in a 26 vehicle pile up with some very serious injuries, they
even tried driving around the police patrol that finally got there to enforce the closure. this closed that m/way for over 12 hours!) We are not
allowed to set diversion signs to send traffic into the"normal" roads, as they don't come under our control.
Queue signs; These are set automatically by the traffic going over wire sensors in the road surface (you'll see them as squares about 1 metre
square in each lane) if they sense that traffic is slowing down below 50 mph, they trip the signals prior to that spot to come on, with 50's and
queue, if the traffic goes even slower, it will show 40's. They also switch off automatically, when the average speed of the traffic, for a set
time (not sure of the length of time, but I think it's about 10 mins) needs to be greater than the speed set. This is so that should traffic
actually stop, the signals will stay on, warning the traffic approaching the tail end of the stopped traffic. any slower speed than 40, has been
manually set, and you can guarantee that there is/has been a problem.
note; a slow moving abnormal load can also trip the matrix on.
Should we receive a call of an incident from a member of the public, we initially set 50's with the appropriate reason, unfortunately, most
drivers don't know where they are, so we finish up setting signals between one junction and the next, until either one of our patrols , or a
police patrol has located the incident, then the signals are adjusted to suit. Signals cannot be cleared until a patrol (ours or police) confirms they
can, after either confirming the scene is now clear, or it's a "No trace"
Signals with either RED flashing lights, ie. Lane closures, or RED circles around the speed restriction, are MANDATORY, and you leave yourself open to
prosecution if you disobey them, the speed signs with yellow lights are advisory, but should you have and accident whilst in an area covered by these
signals, you leave yourself open to "without due care, or even dangerous driving"
Oh, and Kissy, go through a rolling block, and you WILL be done!
Just to say, we have no enforcement powers( & don't want them!) but if anyone is seen with either a dangerous vehicle or load, or driving in
an unsafe manner, we can talk to the police, who then can attend and do the business. This is no more than any member of the public can do, the only
thing is, we have direct communication with them.
[Edited on 12/12/06 by Jimbo]
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:56 PM |
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Sorry but the matrix signs stay lit for days after incidents cant seem too tie that into the speed of traffic, last night for example M1 all but empty
but matrix lit up left right n center.
I personally think the "fend off" position is an accident waiting too happen. Make Joe public think your about too pull out ? Make him
panic and dive across a lane or two ?
The incident you quote re the fog, well I refer you too my opening sentence, people have no faith in the signs because 99 times out of 100 they are
incorrect.
Sorry but as a 45-50k a year motorists I'm yet too be convinced that these patrols are making the roads run any smoother, i suppose when they
cruise at 65mph on motorways at least they get everyone too slam the anchors on and cause standing traffic 3 miles behind them.
Ah, that's why the matrix was lit, there's a patrol 5 miles ahead..........
Signed, one disgruntled motorists, I wonder what the next two days 650 mile round trip as in store......
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Jimbo
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| posted on 13/12/06 at 12:12 AM |
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well jon, I'm sorry but you're talking bollocks, the only way a sign can stay on for days, is if it's faulty, and you will usually
only get the one, with an "ends" on the next one, these are stuck and waiting for the engineer to repair. I've never seen more than
just one at a time like this.
If people brake fiercely when they see a patrol, that's their problem, not ours, and if it causes you a problem, I would suggest that you are
travelling too close.
So you're an expert on the fend off position then? don't think so!
99 times out of 100, the signs are incorrect, RUBBISH! the information that we get may be, but we do have to act on it until it's proved to be
true or false.
The patrol that you see 5 miles ahead, may have just risked life and limb to remove something from a live lane to stop prats like yourself who
don't look farther than the end of their bonnets, from hitting it, and as I said, we've probably had to put the whole lot of signs on
between the junctions, because the MOP who's phoned it in, wasn't sure exactly where they are, but know that they've passed junction
x.
It's no use trying to explain the reasons why things happen to someone like yourself, as you obviously think you know better.
Have a good day!
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gingerpaule
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| posted on 13/12/06 at 12:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
Queue signs; These are set automatically by the traffic going over wire sensors in the road surface (you'll see them as squares about 1 metre
square in each lane) if they sense that traffic is slowing down below 50 mph, they trip the signals prior to that spot to come on, with 50's and
queue, if the traffic goes even slower, it will show 40's. They also switch off automatically, when the average speed of the traffic, for a set
time (not sure of the length of time, but I think it's about 10 mins) needs to be greater than the speed set.
Not having a pop or anything but I don't believe that can be how they work because that would mean that if everyone did what the signs said then
they would never turn themselves off...
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chockymonster
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| posted on 13/12/06 at 06:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
well jon, I'm sorry but you're talking bollocks, the only way a sign can stay on for days, is if it's faulty, and you will usually
only get the one, with an "ends" on the next one, these are stuck and waiting for the engineer to repair. I've never seen more than
just one at a time like this.
99 times out of 100, the signs are incorrect, RUBBISH! the information that we get may be, but we do have to act on it until it's proved to be
true or false.
Pffft.
Always happens on the M3
driving back home to Andover at 2 in the morning to be warned about a 50mph queue ahead. Or on the M25 there's always a queue after the next
junction.
Obviously you know how the signs should work but reality is a different thing. I used to do 80k a year and the number of times matrix signs were
incorrect is a lot higher than you say.
PLEASE NOTE - Responses on Forum Threads may contain Sarcasm and may not be suitable for the hard of Thinking.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 13/12/06 at 06:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
well jon, I'm sorry but you're talking bollocks, the only way a sign can stay on for days, is if it's faulty, and you will usually
only get the one, with an "ends" on the next one, these are stuck and waiting for the engineer to repair. I've never seen more than
just one at a time like this.
If people brake fiercely when they see a patrol, that's their problem, not ours, and if it causes you a problem, I would suggest that you are
travelling too close.
So you're an expert on the fend off position then? don't think so!
99 times out of 100, the signs are incorrect, RUBBISH! the information that we get may be, but we do have to act on it until it's proved to be
true or false.
The patrol that you see 5 miles ahead, may have just risked life and limb to remove something from a live lane to stop prats like yourself who
don't look farther than the end of their bonnets, from hitting it, and as I said, we've probably had to put the whole lot of signs on
between the junctions, because the MOP who's phoned it in, wasn't sure exactly where they are, but know that they've passed junction
x.
It's no use trying to explain the reasons why things happen to someone like yourself, as you obviously think you know better.
Have a good day!
Dont take things so personal, every-ones allowed an opinion...........
Maybe I was wrong about the 99 times out of 100 been wrong, but Monday night they where 100% wrong, or the 3 sets I passed through was anyway, not
just one stuck on but miles of them.
I still hold the opinion the fend off position is dangerous, maybe in your mind the wrong opinion but I'm allowed one arnt I ? Convince me its
safer too scare a motorist into thinking your pulling out, or if you get one up the rear its safer too be knocked into the "live" lane and
I will be a convert.
Not once did I say I was an expert, remind me please of this claim I made.
Sorry but your reaction too an opinion different too yours, well I better take my own advice and shurrup.
Have a good day after next junction
Have a good day after next junction
Have a good day after next junction
Have a good day after next junction
Have a good day after next junction
Incident ahead last week 50
Incident ahead last week 50
Incident ahead last week 50
Incident ahead last week 50
Incident ahead last week 50
End.
Have a good day too
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Jimbo
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| posted on 13/12/06 at 03:42 PM |
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Ok, lets just go back a bit.
up to the last 12 months, the various police forces have been responsible for the signals. The M1 and top of the M25 being one of the last
area's to go fully live a couple of months ago with the HA being responsible for the signals. Each police force used to look after them in their
own perculiar way, some forces were very good at it, others weren't.
We have a force that likes to put 30's on between junctions, we have regular arguments with them about it, as the public see a signal, think
"is it for real?" don't slow down until they see the next one, then they might slow down a little, or leave a bit more room, but
they do become more wary, but they now expect to see whatever caused the problem, and if they don't, and the signals are not getting any more
severe, then they take your attitude and say "bugger it! they've left them on again!" when another mile or so up the road they
probably come across the problem then aren't prepared for it.
This is why we only try to put the signals on immediately where the problem is, unfortunately, if we don't get definate information, we
can't do anything else but blanket it.
This would not occure if people stopped at the first roadside phone (ERT = Emergency Roadside Telephone) to call in with whatever they've seen
instead of using their mobiles, as the ERT flashes upin the RCC on a schematic map, showing exactly where it is as soon as an operator answers it.
Plus the operator they would be talking to, talks "motorway language" and isn't just a call taker in the bowls of a police station
somewhere.
I've had to set signals this morning for a stretch of 8 miles of motorway until a patrol actually got there and gave us the marker post (MP)
then I cleared everything except 1 signal.
If you call a problem in from a mobile, you first of all go through to your mobile operator, anywhere in the country, they in turn put it through to
the police station they THINK covers that area, a 999 operator takes the call, most of them know nothing about motorways, so don't ask the right
questions to get the answers needed, then it's phoned into us, with "varied" information. the whole sequence can take some time, if
you go to an ERT, we'll put the signs on straight away, and get whoever is needed directly to the scene.
Ah! you're talking nightime signals! remembering that anything that refers to queues has being triggered automatically.
During the night-time, lots of roadworks take place, repairing barriers, litter-picking, tree cutting, line painting etc. etc. and you only need the
roadworks vehicle to park over the top of a midas pad, and Bingo! bloody signals! they are a bit of a pain for it! The trouble then is, that you need
so many vehicles to pass over that point in such a space of time for the signals to clear automatically. Either that, or an operator to constantly
keep checking the system & CCTV to see why signals are set, if there's no CCTV, then you're stuffed! you can't force off the
signals until you've sent a patrol to find out if they're genuine or not, as we don't have a bottomless supply of patrols, they get
sent to the most important jobs first.
Should they see signals set for no apparent reason, both our patrols and police patrols will call up to get the signals cleared.
gingerpaule.
No-one, and I mean no-one, actually drives at the speed set on "advisory signals " (yellow lights) if they can go faster.
Just to let you know something else, the Midas pads also record the number of vehicles passing over that location each hour, along with the average
speed over the hour. On a normal day, the AVERAGE speed of the main motorway in our patch varies between 72mph and 78mph. (remember that trucks are
governed to 56mph!) so people just don't drive to speed limits if they can get away with it.
Fend-off positions. A lot of different ones have been tried, and the one with the patrol vehicle slightly pointing out towards lane one is the one in
use at the moment (on a normal h/s, others may vary) it's lasted the longest so far, and is proved to work. as to which way the wheels are
pointing, that again is debatable........ as any vehicle comeing onto the h/s at motorway speeds, will just stuff the patrol car in the direction that
vehicle is travelling. There are 2 HATO's that norrowly missed death earlier this year (they both finished up in intensive care, but the broken
down lady driver was killed) they'll tell you it matters not, as the patrol car just gets picked up and taken for the ride!
[Edited on 13/12/06 by Jimbo]
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macnab
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| posted on 13/12/06 at 04:06 PM |
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oh sitting in your car when its broken down is sooooo dangerous and I see loads of people still doing it. Plus now lots of people stop in dangerous
places to answer their phones. Switch them off in the car...
You could paint the traffic sensing squares yellow so that maintenance folk would see them at night and could avoid parking on them or put light
sensors that change the refresh rate at night.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 14/12/06 at 03:55 PM |
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We are just going too agree too disagree,
Just come back up the M5, loads of Matrix lit, till you get the obligatory end and passed not a sausage, then matrix lit up warning congestion J1-3 on
M42, again nothing, then Matrix lit up congestion M42 J8-9 starting at 50, down too 40 then end and nothing.
Best guess they are left overs from this mornings rush hour although I am aware there was an accident earlier near the NEC M6 junction so that's
probably what the last lot was for.
All I'm trying too say is too have faith in these signs then they have too be seen too be giving up too date info not hours old and I'm
sorry too say in some cases days old information, it does happen.
Only fair too add I suppose I have also seen them work properly, particularly with abnormal/slow loads, Ive witnessed them change almost as the load
passe's them.
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Jimbo
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| posted on 14/12/06 at 11:34 PM |
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Ok Jon.
The next time you find signals set incorrectly, ring 08457 504030. you can do it by voice commands once you've got through initially, then you
can tell them the problem and they'll contact the control room responsible for that area.
you will need to know whereabouts you are, ie between which junctions, markerposts are even better, (get the one where the "ends" are)
you can also report debris in the c/way, but it's not as quick as stopping at an ERT. it usually takes about 15 mnis to get through to us this
way
[Edited on 14/12/06 by Jimbo]
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