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Author: Subject: So... old issue, mating duratec v6 with a RWD gearbox
major

posted on 7/4/07 at 06:23 PM Reply With Quote
So... old issue, mating duratec v6 with a RWD gearbox

I tried to mate the getrag 221 (s-type)with a duratec 25 V6 from a ford mondeo. See if it fits!!!
Well it does and doesn't. I took some pics to get some reaction. They are the same at the top-end of the gearbox. There but when we reach the bottom of the engine the similarity seems to be gone! On the gearbox I certainly have more holes.

Well my question is there enough to go on ???
How to find out without wrecking the setup?
Go for a different gearbox / adaptor plate or....?


Any ideas?










PS:
Not all holes are “Gearbox attach” holes. Some of them are startermotor and dustplate holes.

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mookaloid

posted on 7/4/07 at 06:27 PM Reply With Quote
Just a thought - does the Jag use a different sump?





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mark chandler

posted on 7/4/07 at 06:30 PM Reply With Quote
Looks to me like you have got a decent selection going around, when you look at some engines like RV8's there is nothing on the bottom, I have also seen range rover diesel adapator plates which have less fixing than that.

I would be inclined to get a bit of 1/4" plate (or even a few bits of strip and weld together) and make a simple backplate that joins all the ones that miss.

Regards Mark

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major

posted on 7/4/07 at 06:30 PM Reply With Quote
might, I don't know? the Jag is a 3L instead of a 2.5l.
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AlphaX

posted on 7/4/07 at 06:36 PM Reply With Quote
there are many bellhouses attached to the block with only 4 bolts. Those seem to stay in place. In the end, the bellhouse doesnt carry much weight, as the engine is mounted around its balance-point and the gearbox is mounted to the chassis. The bellhouse only connects both and covers the flywheel/clutch bit.
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major

posted on 7/4/07 at 06:44 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlphaX
there are many bellhouses attached to the block with only 4 bolts. Those seem to stay in place. In the end, the bellhouse doesnt carry much weight, as the engine is mounted around its balance-point and the gearbox is mounted to the chassis. The bellhouse only connects both and covers the flywheel/clutch bit.


OK, got that. But perhaps those 4 points are calculated for this kinda "pressure"?

This is a other SUMP, I saw on an other site. It looks that I got some more "meat" on the gearbox side.

[img][/img]

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big_wasa

posted on 7/4/07 at 07:19 PM Reply With Quote
When bolting a zetec to a type 9 or Mt75 you only get five bolts to hold the job together. Nothing below the bottom of the block.
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major

posted on 7/4/07 at 07:23 PM Reply With Quote
OKe, thanks for the reply.
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AlphaX

posted on 7/4/07 at 08:43 PM Reply With Quote
Same as with a Duratec as I had heard earlier this week. But of that I'm not 100% sure. If you have a few bolts on the main block, and maybe one or two on the sump, ur in good shape. And if you use 12.9 bolts, you are on the safe side.
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turbodisplay

posted on 7/4/07 at 09:20 PM Reply With Quote
Being 20cm from the sump the torque force will be less than the force the gearbox shaft will take.
I personally would think of an adapter plate, but i guess you will be supprised with how much torque a few bolts will take.

My v6 and mt75 do not have many fixing points from what i remember.

Darren

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turbodisplay

posted on 7/4/07 at 09:21 PM Reply With Quote
Sorry 20 cm from centre not sump.
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RazMan

posted on 7/4/07 at 09:52 PM Reply With Quote
I would be inclined to make up an adaptor plate if only to seal out the elements from the clutch.





Cheers,
Raz

When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box

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major

posted on 8/4/07 at 06:05 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlphaX
Same as with a Duratec as I had heard earlier this week. But of that I'm not 100% sure. If you have a few bolts on the main block, and maybe one or two on the sump, ur in good shape. And if you use 12.9 bolts, you are on the safe side.


Yes 12.9 would be my choice. I only used the pictured one for trial fitting.

The dustplate taken from the Jag will take care of the elements.

I think I will try to "insert" 3 more holes.

The first is on the top right. There is a shifted hole (after closing the origional one), I can make use of the same attachment point.

On the bottom right side, I will make a mod on the gearbox by using the 'flat' part of the pan, closing the others for strenght enhancement. (this might change If I decide to extend the pan to the right (left on the pic) a little bit to take care of the

On the left side I need some more modding, by adding a pice of alu to the pan in order to cover for that part.

I tend to try to make all mods on the pan or the engine instead of the gearbox for obvious reasons!!!

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MikeRJ

posted on 8/4/07 at 09:17 AM Reply With Quote
I would be tempted to drill and tap the engine block where the bellhousing hole is located in the second picture down, providing there is plenty of meat behind it. However, the majority of the bellhousing sits well above the sump, so it's probably not worth going to lots of trouble to get a couple of holes to line up in the sump.

Does the starter motor fit ok?

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major

posted on 9/4/07 at 05:35 AM Reply With Quote
"I would be tempted to drill and tap the engine block where the bellhousing hole is located in the second picture down, providing there is plenty of meat behind it. However, the majority of the bellhousing sits well above the sump, so it's probably not worth going to lots of trouble to get a couple of holes to line up in the sump. "

Yes, That is the easy one. Behind bellhouse material there is already one located, which i need to fill-up.

"Does the starter motor fit ok?"
I did not try the starter motor jet, It is however located at the same position as the s type with enough space to go arround so I don't think I have a problem.



[Edited on 9/4/07 by major]

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locost_bryan

posted on 13/4/07 at 04:22 AM Reply With Quote
If the Duratec is from a tranverse installation, you'll need to alter the sump and oil pickup to cater for the 90 degree change in the direction of oil surge. Can you get a Jag sump (and oil pickup)? Might also give you the missing lower holes (if Jag use them!).





Bryan Miller
Auckland NZ

Bruce McLaren - "Where's my F1 car?"
John Cooper - "In that rack of tubes, son"

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marksimon

posted on 14/4/07 at 08:31 AM Reply With Quote
I intend mating a "Duratec" V6 from a Jaguar X-Type to the Getrag gearbox. I've got the bits but have not yet got around to checking them !
An engineer from Jaguar had informed me that they will mate up so long as I use the S-Type sump. This will give 11 bolts attaching the parts. see the drawing.

Getrag_221_Bolt_Configuration
Getrag_221_Bolt_Configuration


Getrag_221_Bolt_Fitment
Getrag_221_Bolt_Fitment


Getrag_221_Bolt_Fitment
Getrag_221_Bolt_Fitment


He implied that both Ford and Jaguar share the same block. Your pictures suggest the blocks are quite different and not just with respect to the machining. I am a little surprised.

Anyway, hope the installation goes well. Some time in the future I'd be interested to share more regarding things such as flywheels, clutches, exhaust manifolds, inlet system, engine management etc.

Have fun.

Mark

~ Edited thess times to get the photos working ! At least I know to how to do it now ~

[Edited on 14/4/07 by marksimon]

[Edited on 14/4/07 by marksimon]

[Edited on 14/4/07 by marksimon]

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major

posted on 15/4/07 at 06:15 AM Reply With Quote
Main diff's

The engine is a 2.5 L, I am not sure if Jaguar used this type of 2.5 with a rwd setup.
The Getrag 221 is from a 3.0L S-type. Whether they used a 2.5L or not there are differences between a 2.5L and a 3.0L on the gearbox sides!
The main differences between the engine and the box are shown in pic 2 and 5, the rest is the sump I recon (9,6,5,11).
In pic 2 there is a hole, but it does not allign wth the one on the gearbox. (thats 10 on the drawing.)
Hole 8 seems to be a big difference between the duratec 25 and the gertrag 221. I am not sure what to do with that.

Thanks,

Marc.

ps:

At present I will use the dualmass flywheel (s-type) to test the setup and for measurements.

The UIM and TB is from a st200 (DH). I did not make a dicision yet on the LIM and the engine management.
My understanding is that the standard ECU is a bit of a problem to change. So I am thinking about using a KMS.

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clockwork

posted on 26/7/07 at 05:15 PM Reply With Quote
[BUMP]
Did you get this sorted?





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major

posted on 29/7/07 at 05:36 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by clockwork
[BUMP]
Did you get this sorted?


I bought a s-type sump. Did not have a chance yet to see if it fits.
From a small distance it looks like it.

Only the same thing also aplied to the gearbox / engine combination!!

Will keep you updated.

marc.

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major

posted on 18/8/07 at 01:16 PM Reply With Quote
sorted! 3rd one from the left is open. I ran out of bolts!!! The solusion was simple, different sump!

[img][/img]otom%20view.JPG

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locost_bryan

posted on 27/8/07 at 03:37 AM Reply With Quote
So, you just need a Jag S-type sump to bolt a Duratec 2.5 (Ford or Jag X-type) to the Getrag box?

Easy or cheap to find (sump or Getrag box)?





Bryan Miller
Auckland NZ

Bruce McLaren - "Where's my F1 car?"
John Cooper - "In that rack of tubes, son"

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major

posted on 27/8/07 at 05:12 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by locost_bryan
So, you just need a Jag S-type sump to bolt a Duratec 2.5 (Ford or Jag X-type) to the Getrag box?

Easy or cheap to find (sump or Getrag box)?


Yep, Just a s-type box, I paid 450 gpb for mine including transport from uk to Holland. I recon if you look a bit further, you can get it for less.
The sump 40 euro excluding gasket and pipe. The suction pipe in the engine needs a little adjusting.
Last but not least, the end of a small bolt (baf-plate) is in the way, in the inside of the engine. Used the saw.

marcel.

[Edited on 27/8/07 by major]

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locost_bryan

posted on 28/8/07 at 02:21 AM Reply With Quote
Interesting comment in Wiki about the Duratec V6, claiming that the Yamaha V8 from the Taurus SHO used the same bore and stroke and bellhousing bolt pattern as the 2.5 V6, and claiming the current Volvo V8 is based on it (has the same stroke as the 3.0 Duratec V6). Hmm, wonder if that has the same bellhousing bolt pattern...





Bryan Miller
Auckland NZ

Bruce McLaren - "Where's my F1 car?"
John Cooper - "In that rack of tubes, son"

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Simon

posted on 28/8/07 at 07:44 PM Reply With Quote
Glad you got this resolved - as it's a bit more for the general knowledge base.

I would say, however, as Mark C pointed out early in the thread that R V8 have only 4 or so bolts in an 18" dia. More to think about is the prop fixings or wheel fixings. They have 4 or so in a 4" or 5" diameter.

I'll let somone else work out how the torque effects that

BTW, can you now fit one of the new Jag diesels

ATB

Simon






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