garage19
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 12:59 PM |
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Turbo kits - which engine?
As suggested by a memeber on another thread, i might see if i can put together a car specific turbo kit that would be significantly cheaper than the
bike orientated kits currently available.
Problem is deciding which would be the most popular bike engine to design a kit
for?
A popular option at the mo seems to be the injected R1 engine???
Which engine would you like a turbo kit for??
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worX
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 01:07 PM |
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Carb'd Blade engine - you can get them quite cheap!
(and I have one at the moment )
Steve
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graememk
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 01:45 PM |
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i dont have a bec but if i was going to do it i'd fit a r1
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Jubal
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 02:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by worX
Carb'd Blade engine - you can get them quite cheap!
(and I have one at the moment )
Steve
Yeah, carbed blade engine. Mine's a 98 RRW. I'll do a bulk buy of two kits with Steve (if he agrees to help me fit it!).
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JoelP
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 02:56 PM |
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id say new r1 and zx10. My current zx9 isnt really worth the effort turbo'ing, if i was starting again knowing a well priced kit was available,
id go zx10 or r1.
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rjbrookes
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 03:45 PM |
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zx12 please!
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dazdcfc
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 03:58 PM |
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954rr blade would be nice
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tom_loughlin
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| posted on 24/5/07 at 07:24 PM |
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2.0 Zetec on GSXR TB's....
Failing that, you could use my 205 as a guinea pig... or the Mi16 
Just re read it, about the bike bit...sod them, and do a ar one
[Edited on 24/5/07 by tom_loughlin]
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garage19
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 07:29 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
I rest my case from most of the replies above, everyone with differing engine will all want differing kits.
You are right, but i should imagine the 893/918 blade engine would be a good kit to start with?
They are fairly low powered compared to the R1/GSR1000 engines available today so the turbo would make a nice upgarde for people that already have
them in their cars.
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gingerprince
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 08:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by garage19
You are right, but i should imagine the 893/918 blade engine would be a good kit to start with?
I think the simple fact that there are more early blades out there in cars than any other bike (I mean installed) is business reason enough to develop
for this platform - biggest customer base.
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worX
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 12:50 PM |
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see, now you are all seeing sense!!!
and believe me, I could do with a decent hike in power! and Yes Derek (Jubal), you are on!!!
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by garage19
quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
I rest my case from most of the replies above, everyone with differing engine will all want differing kits.
You are right, but i should imagine the 893/918 blade engine would be a good kit to start with?
They are fairly low powered compared to the R1/GSR1000 engines available today so the turbo would make a nice upgarde for people that already have
them in their cars.
AND
I think the simple fact that there are more early blades out there in cars than any other bike (I mean installed) is business reason enough to develop
for this platform - biggest customer base.
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worX
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 02:01 PM |
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Not if you appreciate the qualities of a honda engine - take into account the complete lack of wanting to touch another piece of automotive wiring for
as long as I live - having an engine cradle etc.
and on top of that, adore driving turbo'd cars!
I know and understand why you would put what you did above, but that doens't mean that there isn't a load of fun in wanting to do it
still!
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
Hi
The idea is nice but is missing the point.....
The work and money required to get a lower specced blade engine to output anything like decently reliable horse power, will take lots of time &
lots of money to buy and setup so it runs properly
You would be quicker and cheaper to just throw an old blade engine out, and fit a newer higher specced output engine that will be more reliable and
easier to setup.
Work smart, not hard.
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bike_power
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 02:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
Hi
The idea is nice but is missing the point.....
The work and money required to get a lower specced blade engine to output anything like decently reliable horse power, will take lots of time &
lots of money to buy and setup so it runs properly
You would be quicker and cheaper to just throw an old blade engine out, and fit a newer higher specced output engine that will be more reliable and
easier to setup.
Work smart, not hard.
Now you're coming round to my way of thinking....fancy a busa now do we ? 
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richard thomas
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 02:10 PM |
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gttman
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 05:05 PM |
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Definatelly Injected R1....
Andygtt
Please redefine your limits
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 25/5/07 at 06:08 PM |
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IMHO the blade is nearing its limitations with regards to gearbox / clutch strength in standard tune when in a BEC, so to put 40-50% more power and
torque through it is going to make it unreliable.
I know John Cobb has turbo'd a Westfield blade and it seems to run OK, but he has done a fair bit of development on it to get it reasonably
reliable and Im still not convinced it would take the type of pounding you give the engine if you do 10 trackdays a year.
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worX
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| posted on 26/5/07 at 01:10 PM |
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I am not saying that the engine is bulletproof, these are bike engines in cars, not many of them are truly bullet proof - and where one engine is
better it might also have it's weak points elsewhere. Similar to the above comment about the Hondas drivetrain potentially being pretty close to
it's limits already - something I am aware of and certainly wouldn't deny!
As for the comments re the wiring, No Mark, I understand that when fitting a turbo there will be an alteration/addition in wiring - are you saying
that it is the same amount of change to wiring that putting in a different engine altogether? R1 for instance?
When you say rational thought - you have a point there - I assume that you will be fitting a turbo to only the best motor deserving of it, Busa for
instance, so that people won't say to you, why have you done that, it would of been better to turbo a Busa or ZX12! Well I don't have that
sort of money, and I would be doing it more for an exercise in Turbo-ing an engine and learning about the practical side of it (rather than just
having the tiny bit of knowledge I've gained from reading about it!), and that engine would probably be a Blade engine to start with because
thats what I've got!!!
And I understand that the above doesn't scream rational thought, but it makes (a little!) sense to me!
I'd love to learn to Tig weld to a high standard and I think that the fabrication involved in putting together my own "Turbo kit"
and exhaust components would be a good opportunity to do that!
Steve
[Edited on 26/5/07 by worX]
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Simon
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| posted on 27/5/07 at 11:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by worX
..... , and I would be doing it more for an exercise in Turbo-ing an engine
I agree entirely
I'd love to learn to Tig weld to a high standard and I think that the fabrication involved in putting together my own "Turbo kit"
and exhaust components would be a good opportunity to do that!
I agree again, but be prepared to have your patience tested
ATB
Simon
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chockymonster
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| posted on 28/5/07 at 10:04 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gttman
Definatelly Injected R1....
Agree with that
PLEASE NOTE - Responses on Forum Threads may contain Sarcasm and may not be suitable for the hard of Thinking.
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bike_power
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| posted on 28/5/07 at 06:28 PM |
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If you're going to spend the time and money developing a turbo kit for an engine then it needs to be an engine that can take the power, the
modern 1 litre engines are simply not built with this in mind. They're cranking power units if you take them on face value but they fall short
in stregth - this is what makes them so good as a stcok engine, small crank, small journals, small clutch, small gears etc - it's all small and
light in order to get them to rev and make power by way of high speed breathing, not low down slugging torque.
If you compare the busa gearbox with a blade hearbox for example, it'll be very clear. Same with a crank, the busa crank is much more
substantial than an R1 or blade crank.
If you're looking for an engine to turbocharge and the busa etc are too expensive, then how about the old ZZR1100 or the 1992ish (was it 1990
era ?) ZX10, bit heavy but the internals are more substantial from what I remember. Probably got more chance of something like that holding up with a
turbo than a modern litre engine.
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gttman
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| posted on 28/5/07 at 10:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bike_power
If you're going to spend the time and money developing a turbo kit for an engine then it needs to be an engine that can take the power, the
modern 1 litre engines are simply not built with this in mind. They're cranking power units if you take them on face value but they fall short
in stregth - this is what makes them so good as a stcok engine, small crank, small journals, small clutch, small gears etc - it's all small and
light in order to get them to rev and make power by way of high speed breathing, not low down slugging torque.
If you compare the busa gearbox with a blade hearbox for example, it'll be very clear. Same with a crank, the busa crank is much more
substantial than an R1 or blade crank.
If you're looking for an engine to turbocharge and the busa etc are too expensive, then how about the old ZZR1100 or the 1992ish (was it 1990
era ?) ZX10, bit heavy but the internals are more substantial from what I remember. Probably got more chance of something like that holding up with a
turbo than a modern litre engine.
So its either a remorgage for the Busa or go for an old heavy bike engine otherwise its simply not worth it?
Of cause another good locost idea is to just buy a car engine and turbocharge that... My BMW V12 only cost me £10 and can take 15psi without internal
mods.... can you get 600bhp from a Busa for around 1k if you do the work yourself?
My vote still lies with the injected R1... as I have no doubt I will end up doing it myself at some stage.
Andygtt
Please redefine your limits
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bike_power
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| posted on 29/5/07 at 04:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gttman
So its either a remorgage for the Busa or go for an old heavy bike engine otherwise its simply not worth it?
Of cause another good locost idea is to just buy a car engine and turbocharge that... My BMW V12 only cost me £10 and can take 15psi without internal
mods.... can you get 600bhp from a Busa for around 1k if you do the work yourself?
My vote still lies with the injected R1... as I have no doubt I will end up doing it myself at some stage.
No, the comment always made on here is "that's not locost" and buying rods and pistons and work on the crank etc isn't locost,
even if you can fit them yourself. If you want to get into changing parts then any engine can probably be made useable, just depends on how much you
want to spend and how much power you want.
The thread was about a cheap bolt-on kit, a locost kit. If that's the aim then an older engine is probably the better option. If locost
isn't the main design factor then try an R1, why not, have cash can have bhp.
But why bother spending the additional cash/effort when a busa will give it to you pretty much on a plate ? (We're talking more than 6psi
obviously - if all you want is 6psi then it'll probably be fine, a lawnmower engine will probably take 6psi, but why bother with just 6 ?)
I think people are still thinking that a busa is £4k - it's not, even Malc can sell them complete for what, £2750 now, that's only £1000
more than an R1.
If you want 600bhp then a car engine is the way to go, even a busa will never be reliable at that power level even with serious cash and work. A BMW
V12 could probably make that all day and still drive sensibly enough to use it for work
Nice car btw, been following your work via PH, very nice
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