Cosworth v bike engine

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alan wheeldon

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:02 PM

Cosworth v bike engine

Im just wanting other peoples opinions on this one as I cant make my mind up....

Take a stage 3 tuned 330bhp Cosworth engine and a standard 160bhp Yamaha R1 engine, put them in 2 identical locosts and which one would come out on top??

The cosworth has more power but also weighs about 3 times as much, the gear changes will be completely different too due to the Cosworth having a normal 5 speed gearbox. The R1 will be able to shift gears a lot quicker so will spend more time applying the power down.....

I cant make my mind up, just wondering if anyone has any hard evidence on this

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SyKaTurbo

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:04 PM

OT but hello to a fellow CUKer! lol

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:05 PM

Have a look at:

http://www.daxrush.nl/Daxstart_bestanden/Daxstart.html

ned

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:08 PM

Hicost runs about 300bhp on his lower map/injectors on his YB and is quicker than most standard bike engines imho.

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:09 PM

On most tracks in the UK, the R1 will win every time due to it's light weight. On a drag strip, the outcome will probably be different...........

Phil

[Edited on 4-9-07 by Hellfire]

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:14 PM

I went in a friends Quantum Extreme, running a Stage 3 Cosworth lump (circa 330bhp) and I have to say I think it was way too much. It was the torque that was the problem, in such a small lightweight car it was a nightmare. I cringed everytime he put his foot down, as the wheels would spin in just about any gear!

His mate has a Hayabusa Quantum Extreme and they have raced around Pembrey (is that what its called?) and said they lapped with very close times. Clearly the Cosworth car will pull higher top speed and straight line accelration, but throw in the twisties (as you should in a 7) and the R1 would shine. The other major problem with the Cosworth engine is the cost. A donor will set you back £2000+ (although you can sell lots of the bits) and there was a lot of custom parts to make/source.

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:15 PM

as a cec driver i have a few a bhp with my nissan 200sx engine in the indy and i struggle to keep up with a indy fire blade.

John.Taylor

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:19 PM

I think that the answer is all down to usable power and your proposed application.

What's the point spending big money on a sorted 330bhp cossie setup if you can't put the power down, the turbo lag prevents smooth progress and the extra weight over the front reduces cornering speed and acceleration, and increases breaking distances.

I'm specifically installing a pinto which I have built to approx 130bhp as I feel that it will have adequate power for my purposes and it was the iconic engine of my formative years.

I plan to do some long trips to Le Mans and Nurburgring, occaional track days and a bit of hooning around the North Yorkshire Moors, and see a bike engine as a track led decision so car engine it was.

If the pinto becomes too tame and my usage changes I may look at a different set-up in the future.

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:20 PM

high revs low torque = no wheelspin , you can only accelerate as fast as the tyres will let you .

still im not changing my car engine for a bike engine .

if you still want that turbo rush - build one around a cheaper engine - the cosworth isnt the only way to do it .

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Paul TigerB6

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:21 PM

A bigger difference will come from stopping and turning a much lighter bike engined car rather than the power to weight ratio - given similar figures i'd expect the BEC to run rings around a Cossie car. Big open tracks where higher speeds are involved then no doubt the top end power of the Cossie would shine through.
I'd expect the R1 install to be a whole lot cheaper than a Cossie anyway - and cheaper / easier if things go bang. ZZR1400 would surely still be cheaper than a Cossie install if rebuilt??

02GF74

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by alan wheeldon

The cosworth has more power but also weighs about 3 times as much, the gear changes will be completely different too due to the Cosworth having a normal 5 speed gearbox. The R1 will be able to shift gears a lot quicker so will spend more time applying the power down.....

you quote engine wieghts 3 x??? but you shold take poverall car weight; the cosworth should weigh no more than the r1 engined one with a medium sizes passenger.

as for changing gear - yes, the bec will change quicker but the CEC will need to change fewer times.

now see which one goes faster in reverse

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:40 PM

can this formula be used.
http://www.letstorquebhp.com/calculator.asp

Fireblade turbo Indy

Power at Flywheel (BHP) : 200
Weight without Driver (KG) : 480
Power to Weight Ratio (BHP Per Ton) : 423.36
0 - 60 (Secs) : 3.42
0 - 100 (Secs) : 9.03
60 - 100 (Secs) : 5.61
Quarter Mile (Secs) : 11.82
Terminal Speed (MPH) : 114.40
Drag Strip Quarter Mile (Secs) : 11.72
Drag Strip Terminal Speed (MPH) : 115.80

[Edited on 4/9/07 by welderman]

Indy cosworth guess at weight.

Power at Flywheel (BHP) : 300
Weight without Driver (KG) : 700
Power to Weight Ratio (BHP Per Ton) : 435.45
0 - 60 (Secs) : 3.39
0 - 100 (Secs) : 8.30
60 - 100 (Secs) : 4.92
Quarter Mile (Secs) : 11.69
Terminal Speed (MPH) : 118.62
Drag Strip Quarter Mile (Secs) : 11.59
Drag Strip Terminal Speed (MPH) : 120.03

[Edited on 4/9/07 by welderman]

Not much in it really

[Edited on 4/9/07 by welderman]

But i would add that the bec would handle better.

[Edited on 4/9/07 by welderman]

Thank's, Joe

I don't stalk people

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=172301

Back on with the Fisher Fury R1

alan wheeldon

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74

quote:
Originally posted by alan wheeldon

The cosworth has more power but also weighs about 3 times as much

you quote engine wieghts 3 x??? but you shold take poverall car weight; the cosworth should weigh no more than the r1 engined one with a medium sizes passenger.

The Cosworth will weigh loads more, (dont forget about the gearbox) the bike engine probably weighs as much as the Cosworth gearbox never mind the engine.

I agree with a few people when they say it depends on usable power. With 330bhp it might be a little too much in such a light car to be able to get the power down and with turbo lag it might make it a little harder to control.

The weight transfer would be a big issue and I agree the R1 might be a little quicker round the corners due to this.

Built black pinto MK, black blackbird MK, yellow pinto MK. Now working on a Sierra.

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alan wheeldon

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by welderman
can this formula be used.
http://www.letstorquebhp.com/calculator.asp />

Thats a nice link but its not really any good for what im trying to get across. You cant really compare a 160bhp bike engine to a 160bhp car engine from that calculation

[Edited on 4/9/07 by alan wheeldon]

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BenB

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:50 PM

Aerodynamics plays a big part in answering this question.

Power:weight ratio has a major effect on acceleration. Overall BHP has an effect on top speed as does aerodynamics.

Handling is fairly ignorant of BHP and is all to do with weight.

So a heavy 7 with BHP will eat up the drag strip until the CD of a 7 becomes just too much....

A lightweight 7 with a healthy power:weight ratio and good handling will be much better (and much more fun) on a track but will have a lower top speed due to the lack of BHP to push through the wall of air @ high speed.

For traffic-light grand prixs they'll probably be about equal (ie better than most other things on the road!!!)...

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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:52 PM

As a similar example of (un)useable power I drove a 2wd Sierra Cossie with about 320Bhp on a slightly damp road & it was an absolute nightmare, everytime you used the power the back end would slide down the camber of the road!!

It was really horrible to drive & quite frankly dangerous.

My power to weight is way higher than the Cossie was (I have about 400bhp/tonne), but I don't have any of the same problems of driveability even on a fully wet road.

If you want plenty of power & torque then go for a standard, or mildly tweaked 'Busa or Zx12/14. You'll keep all the advantages of the lighter weight & lower cost of the bec but still have the straight line performance of the Cossie.

Another example of too much power/torque, I watched a 'Busa turbo engined Dax accelerate hard & all it did was leap from side to side leaving black lines at about £5 per foot & rubber smoke everywhere, but the acceleration was actually rellatively slow, an ordinary bec would have driven straight past it.

I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
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posted on 4/9/07 at 12:56 PM

i have a westfield with 2 litre duratec with 5 speed sequential box giving circa 240/250bhp and weighs 540kgs approx 450bhp per tonne .this sort of power is ample if only for track work /road unless your going to santa pod i wouldnt bother with 330bhp cossie it would be un useable imho.ive had 3 westfields now blade/busa and duratec the duratec is quicker in a straight line and about the same in corners now im getting used to the extra power and handling .cosssie powered car has gotta weigh 650/750kgs plus were as bec car your looking at 540kg for a heaviest.of course if you want the biggest engine then fit it but cossie power aint cheap and nether is keeping them cool .guy on wscc had zetec turbo which he had a lot of problems keepin cool

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posted on 4/9/07 at 01:16 PM

A friend has a 400bhp Dax, which is mental! He doesn't have traction problems as such as it's a Quadra (4x4).

At Teesside it's noticably slower than my R1 Striker through the twisties, but get it on the (short) straight bits and off it goes!

Spin 'er off Well...

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posted on 4/9/07 at 01:18 PM

What if the cossie turbo was 4 wheel drive

A

alan wheeldon

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posted on 4/9/07 at 01:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by alanr
What if the cossie turbo was 4 wheel drive

A

Thats a different story and opens up a whole new can of beans

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posted on 4/9/07 at 01:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by hicost
Well mine will now run 430/440bhp with the two stage boost.

Just been looking at your engine install!! Wow!!

Now would it be fair to say a whole BEC could be built for not a great deal more than a 430bhp Cossie (if you dont mind me asking)??

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posted on 4/9/07 at 01:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by alan wheeldon

quote:
Originally posted by alanr
What if the cossie turbo was 4 wheel drive

A

Thats a different story and opens up a whole new can of beans

As well as opening up a new mortgage

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posted on 4/9/07 at 01:36 PM

R1 hands down 4x4 or not.

Rig

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posted on 4/9/07 at 01:44 PM

125 MPH needs about 150 RW BHP (caterham aerodynamics)
160 MPH needs about 300 RW BHP (caterham aerodynamics)

With optimum gearing, the cosworth engine will have more top speed. A lot more. With all that torque though, you won't be able to use 1st gear beyond 1/3 throttle or second beyond 2/3 without burning your tyres down to the threads.

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posted on 4/9/07 at 02:02 PM

Hi first things first. What is the car to be used for. Road- track- 1/4 mile- ect.

This will be the biggest influence on a sencible decision.

Quoting a 300bhp cossie i asume would be just NA Not turbo. But even so i never see any reason to try and put more than 200-250 bhp in to a seven type car. The rest of the bhp above that is just wasted unlesss you are trying to achive a silly top speed.

cheers matt

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