Atomfun
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 10:31 AM |
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Towing Dollys - The 'A' Frame Type :)
I don't have the money to buy or space to keep a Brian James trailer for my Atom so I've been thinking about one of the 'A'
frame towing dollys.
I have two concerns:
1. Will they steer a car like the Atom? The manufacturers say yes. Ariel, the Atom designers/constructors say maybe.
2. The point at which the dolly would attach to the Atom is nicely powdercoated and a feature of the car. I DON'T want to wrap chains around and
damage the powdercoating.
So, my question:
Has anyone experience of these 'A' frame towing dollys?
Cheers
John
John Cooper
'Ariel makes your whites browner'
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graememk
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 10:36 AM |
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i think they can only be used for recovery. something to do with the weight and brakes.
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 10:37 AM |
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I'm afraid they are illegal to use for anything other than recovery purposes.
Quote from the NTTA here: http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/default.htm
quote:
I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this
outfit?
Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb
weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the
kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with
an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An
A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be
offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked
trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European
Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK
for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.
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antimony
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 11:19 AM |
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So what is the GVW of an Atom? Unladen they weigh less than 500kg. Two fat blokes and luggage;-) can't be more than 250kg therefore it must be
less than 750kg?
I've used an A-frame for years to tow my Striker the length of the country without any probs. I use pipe lagging and carpet to protect against
damage caused by the chains.
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bonzoronnie
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 11:37 AM |
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A Frame towing
Hi All,
I had a similar problem when deciding whether to build a towing dolly or an A frame.
I contacted the local traffic police. NO help whatsoever, 
I then contacted my local VOSA HGV Testing Centre.
I was given the following advice.
Towing dolly's are restricted for recovery purposes only.
The use of an A frame is a very grey area of the law.
However my local centre was of the following view:
Connecting an A frame to a car, in effect, turns it into an unbraked trailer.
Providing your vehicle manufacturers unbraked towing limits are not exceeded. They are perfectly leagal for road use.
Furthermore, are not restricted to recovery use only.
You will be required to display a lighting board bearing the towing vehicles REG no on the vehicle being towed.
I asked about the need for ON TOW signs. The answer was NO, they are not required on a trailer.
On a personal note. I have covered over 4,000 miles of A frame towing & have collected cars in excess of 300 miles from home. Never any problem,
The towed vehicle follows you perfectly. Very sharp turns can be a bit hairy, you soon learn how to deal with them.
A lot of motorway use. Seen literally dozens of patrol cars, I have yet to be stopped by the police.
Ronnie 
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gingerprince
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 11:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by antimony
I've used an A-frame for years to tow my Striker the length of the country without any probs.
Then you've done it illegally, but got away with it.
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02GF74
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 12:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by antimony
I've used an A-frame for years to tow my Striker the length of the country without any probs.
I've stolen candy from babies in prams and pension money from lickle old ladies for years now without any probs.
DOESN'T MEAN IT IS RIGHT OR LEGAL. 
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RazMan
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 12:13 PM |
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As far as I know there is no law that permits us to use an A-frame in England, likewise there is no law to prohibit it's use, so it is still
very much a grey area.
I think this is a 'common sense' issue and as long as you are seen to be as careful as possible the Plod will not give you a second look
...... unless you have an accident. I have read somewhere that the tow vehicle has to weigh more than double the weight of the car on tow.
[Edited on 30-11-07 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 12:53 PM |
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It is correct that if the gross weight of the towed vehicle is less than 750kg then you can use an A-frame and call it an unbraked trailer. As with
all trailer issues though, it is the Maximum Gross Weight that defines the limit, not what the vehicle / trailer actually weighs at the time.
Check the GVW on the chassis plate.
Note: there is a difference between a dolly (which has wheels and is always for recovery only) and an A-frame which, as above, could
potentially be used legally.
To the couple of posters above who use A-frames regularly: just because you have been doing something for years does not make it legal. Most police
etc have no clue about the regulations and so therefore you will always get away with it. The problem comes when you have an accident as you can be
damn sure the lawyers will look it up properly!
[Edited on 30/11/07 by matt_claydon]
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antimony
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 12:59 PM |
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So does anyone actually know the GVW on their cars, chassis plate on my Striker doesn't say?
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antimony
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 01:03 PM |
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quote:
I've stolen candy from babies in prams and pension money from lickle old ladies for years now without any probs.
DOESN'T MEAN IT IS RIGHT OR LEGAL.
But that wasn't infront of policemen (or women)
I've been stopped by traf pol for "there have been a few thefts of vehicles in this area" Once they established that I was legit I
was sent on my way.
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Johnmor
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 01:09 PM |
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Towing Dolly
I have investigated this and I am aware of the issues mentioned prevoiusly. And my understanding is that dollys are for recovery only , and deoes not
mean 300 miles but to a place of safey.
But,, many towing dollys can be manufactured with brakes, similar to any normal trailer. If this is used with a suitable tail board and lights , is
this then classed as a trailer and only the towing restriction weights apply?
I have seen many garages transport and deliver vehicles in this fashion and was never sure of the implication,
Thoughts on this please.
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Johnmor
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 01:22 PM |
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Info
Not sure if this makes things clearer or not...
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM
provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder
of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the
unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Whereas, the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall
within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the
trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's
handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne
would be well within the new category B threshold.
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Atomfun
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 01:32 PM |
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Hahahaha
I didn't even consider the legality of such things! 
John Cooper
'Ariel makes your whites browner'
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Atomfun
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 01:34 PM |
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The Striker is probably very similar to the Atom - suspension and steering arrangement.
Do you have any pics of the 'A' frame attached?
The Atom certaily weighs less than 750Kgs, except when I get in it!!!
John Cooper
'Ariel makes your whites browner'
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 01:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Atomfun
The Atom certaily weighs less than 750Kgs, except when I get in it!!!
As I said, it's not about what it weighs at any given time but about what its maximum plated gross weight is. Have a look on your chassis plate
but I suspect it'll be over 750kg.
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 01:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnmor
But,, many towing dollys can be manufactured with brakes, similar to any normal trailer. If this is used with a suitable tail board and lights , is
this then classed as a trailer and only the towing restriction weights apply?
I have seen many garages transport and deliver vehicles in this fashion and was never sure of the implication,
Thoughts on this please.
My understanding is that dollies are for recovery only not due to the braking issue, but due to the fact that there is more than one point of
articulation (tow hitch and vehicle steering). It's kind of like having two trailers in line which is not normally allowed for light vehicles in
the UK.
I can't remember where I got this though so it may be just rumour!
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owelly
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 02:30 PM |
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Some folks are getting dollies and a-frames mixed up. Dollies suspend the towed vehicle and are for recovery only. A-frames turn the towed vehicle
into a trailer and as such, the trailer regs kick in. The towed vehicle must have less than 750kg MGW. That means the total weight that the vehicle
can weigh when it's fully loaded even though when it's being towed it could weigh a lot less, and it must be under whatever the tow
vehicle can legally tow unbraked. If the towed vehicle exceeds 750kg GVW, some would argue that if you have a secondary braking system fitted to the
towed vehicle brake pedal operated from the overun coupling on the hitch, then it becomes a braked trailer. However, the trailer regs state that the
brakes must be approved 'reversable' brakes and not adapted vehicle brakes.
And even though the towed vehicle has become a trailer, it still must be fully road legal if any of its wheels are touching the ground.....
Clear???
In reality, the BiB don't have a clue. I've towed using a Harvey Frost Crane dolly and also a spec dolly with no hassles. I still use an
A-frame but I have a bundle of answers if I ever get pulled by the plod in the hope that I can baffle them with bullshat!
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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antimony
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 02:44 PM |
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But as Razman pointed out, if you have a serious accident, the lawyers will work out whether you are legal or not. I have never had a problem with
the police when towing using an A-frame and as I don't have anywhere to keep a trailer, I will still keep using the A-frame, but it would be
nice to know the exact legalities of it.
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bonzoronnie
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 02:46 PM |
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A Frames
This is a very interesting topic indeed.
Many, myself included. Think that it is acceptable to use an A frame.
However, an equal amount of voices are of the view " the use of an A frame is not lawfull".
Perhaps someone who shares the latter view, can point us to the relevant section of the RTA ( Road Traffic Act ). The one that prohibits the use of an
A frame for towing other than recovery.
I spent a great deal of time, researching the law governing the use of an A frame. I came up with nothing but second hand information, both
for & against.
As the law is such a grey area. In the unlikely event of an accident. Provided you have not exceeded the maximum towable weight. The CPS would have
little chance of bringing charges.
Ronnie
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Atomfun
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 02:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bonzoronnie
As the law is such a grey area. In the unlikely event of an accident. Provided you have not exceeded the maximum towable weight. The CPS would have
little chance of bringing charges.
Ronnie
The same chance the CPS will have bringing Labour Party Ministers to book then - cash for honours & sticky gifts
John Cooper
'Ariel makes your whites browner'
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Danozeman
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 04:48 PM |
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An a frame and towing dolly are different things as said.
I think an A frame is legal as eeffectivley the car is the a trailer.. Look at all the campers that tow little cars behind on a frames. You can get
the kits to do it.
A dolly is different as the car is suspended.
Dan
Built the purple peril!! Let the modifications begin!!
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk
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britishtrident
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 05:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Danozeman
An a frame and towing dolly are different things as said.
I think an A frame is legal as eeffectivley the car is the a trailer.. Look at all the campers that tow little cars behind on a frames. You can get
the kits to do it.
A dolly is different as the car is suspended.
**** enormous camper vans with those ****** davit things --- I was once stuck behind one for 30 miles on a highland road, the guy had a tail back of
80+ cars behind him.
Use of towing dollys dates back to WW1, tricky things best avoided.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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RazMan
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 05:21 PM |
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[popcorn]
And then of course there is the question as to whether the towed car needs to be registered & taxed 
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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zilspeed
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| posted on 30/11/07 at 05:41 PM |
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The interweb is chock full of people saying "I think this" or "I believe that" regarding A frames.
As regards the NTTA, this is a trade body, not a government department. Their interpretation is no more than that - an interpretation.
My own point of view is that correctly used - weighty tow car, light towed car and keeping to a sensible speed, it is inherently stable due to the 4
wheels at the corners of the towed car. I would certainly rather tow with an A frame than use a crap or poorly loaded trailer. Snake just isn't
possible with an A frame.
Anyway - your mileage may indeed vary, so make your own mind up.
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