garage19
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 08:10 AM |
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Metro uprights???
So far my design has been focused around using the cortina geometry uprights from rally design. Only problem is that they lead to a fair amount of
scrub raduis which i'm worried might make the steering feel heavy and non direct.
Whilst in the scrappy at the weekend i noticed some metro front uprights.
First thing that looked good is that they have detatachable steering arms. The KPI looked a bit high and i'm not sure how the top ball joint is
held in.
The other problem to over come is the what to do to stop the wheel falling off when you take the driveshaft out?
Could i just maching the shaft off the drive shaft? Aren't they really hard?
Has any one evr used metro uprights before on a middy???
I seem to vaguely remember the GTM Libra uses them???
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davidwag
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 08:35 AM |
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Hi,
Well Rover did it with the MGF. Just more or less used a complete from subframe from a metro. They left the outer CV in place with no driveshaft
attached and the bearings removed.
David
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 08:35 AM |
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Look in the back and front of an MGF.
Also used in the front of the Frogeye Car Co. cars, with the cv tube machined off.
Top balljoint screws in, same as the old Mini. KPI isn't too bad, I have the figures at home on the cad machine. It is slightly more than the
Mini, and near the same as the Allegro and Austin 1100/1300.
Cheers,
Syd.
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garage19
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 08:53 AM |
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oooh Sid, those figures would be useful before i go to the trouble of taking some off at the breakers.
I asume MGF discs and callipers would bolt on then?
What PCD are the studs?
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 09:10 AM |
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I won't be home til next week, but I'll try and find the figures if I remember.
I'm not sure what swaps with what, as I was involved in how the Metro stuff fits into the Mini's, and the 1300 which my sons drive.
I think the MGF used the Metro upright unaltered, brake mounts and all.
Pcd is the same as Mini, 4 on 4", but centre spigot is bigger(??) than the Mini by a couple of mm. This latter can catch you out when fitting
Mini wheels.
Mr.Trident seems to play with all this stuff daily, so he'll probably know precisely.
Cheers,
Syd.
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designer
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 09:34 AM |
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The Metro, and Mini, uprights are very easy to use at the front. And, for many the KPI is better than that of the Sierra.
The CV part of the spindle can be safely machined/ground off, which leaves a flange to secure the spindle in the upright.
All the 'go faster' bits are available off the shelf for the Metro/Mini upright. The ventilated discs are also cheap compared to modern
cars.
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designer
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 09:35 AM |
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Wouldn't mind a copy of the figures too.
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garage19
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 10:10 AM |
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Excellent info. Cheers guys.
It would seem from looking at the Libra owners site they do indeed use metro uprights. They also seem to be upgrading to later performance mg brakes
so it looks like they bolt on.
The Libra specs shoe 11.5 deg KPI. Does that sound about right?
Is that a reasonable figure?
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britishtrident
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 10:12 AM |
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PCD changed istr later Metro/Rover used the old Triumph Herald PCD.
They are ideal for rocker arm front wishbones as Lotus 25 and F27.
However Metro like Mini uprights are designed for negative caster -- they would need to be swapped left to right.
Problem with Cortina uprights isn't scrub radius it is the lack of KPI.
Ford switched to a low KPI to reduce the steering effort.
he Cortina actually had a much lower scrub radius than the Escort and Capri.
Interestingly when they left the factory Cortinas used a 0.5" different wheel offset from Escort and Capri, if you fitted one Capri Rostyle to
Cortina or vice versa it would result in a severe steering pull under braking.
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garage19
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 10:20 AM |
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But its the lack of KPI that causes the big scrub radius on most common offset wheels isn't it?
If i swapped sides the brakes would be at the front??
So are you saying thay are a non starter Mr Trident?
Wonder how GTM got round the castor thing?
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britishtrident
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 11:03 AM |
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Trouble is that these days most wheels are designed for strut suspension, hence are wide track.
A big scrub radius isn't a massive problem it just causes more kick back and increases steering loads when cornering and under braking ---
which isn't to bad on a road car on a racer it can be hard work.
A bigger (than Cortina) kpi is required on a light car as it contributes a lot to steering self centrering.
The negative caster is easilly fixed all that is required is to swap left and right uprights over and think about what you want to do with the
steering rack and steering arm position.
Actually I suspect on the MGF/MG TF they might actually run negative caster and just allow the KPI to generate self centering--- I would need to
check the MG-Rover RAVE manual.
[Edited on 14/7/08 by britishtrident]
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garage19
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 11:31 AM |
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Surely if i swap the uprights the calliper mounts will be in the wrong position?
The steering arms would be no prob as they are bolt on so i could simply make some new ones.
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JC
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 11:55 AM |
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'Austin' Metro uprights are 4" PCD.
The later K series cars are 95.25mm, centre bore 56.6mm.
To use them, take the outer section of the CV joint and leave it in place!
The Terrapin, by Alan Staniforth, used mini uprights at the front. The book 'High Speed, low cost" has details of how to to do this,
although Metro hubs are slightly different, particularly the bottom ball joint. I'm fairly sure neither have bolt on steering arms as
standard.
Finally, I have a pair from a 1.1 Rover Metro, complete with drive shafts, clogging my build space. If you are passing Sleaford, let me know!
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garage19
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 12:07 PM |
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The ones i saw at the breaker deffo had bolt on steering arms. The arm was bolted on the top of the upright with two bolts in a vertical
direction.
Maybe it was a later metro or 111 or whatever they rebadged them as.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 02:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by garage19
Surely if i swap the uprights the calliper mounts will be in the wrong position?
The steering arms would be no prob as they are bolt on so i could simply make some new ones.
Calipers don't have to be in any particular position front, back, top, bottom they don't care --- only difference is slight difference
in wheel bearing loads.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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garage19
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| posted on 14/7/08 at 03:09 PM |
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Yes they do. If the callipers are at the back the mounts will be designed to take an upwards load.
If they are at the front the load will be downwards.
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designer
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| posted on 15/7/08 at 06:23 AM |
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You can see that the uprights is very compact and robust because a drive shaft goes through it.
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smart51
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| posted on 15/7/08 at 07:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by garage19
The ones i saw at the breaker deffo had bolt on steering arms. The arm was bolted on the top of the upright with two bolts in a vertical
direction.
Maybe it was a later metro or 111 or whatever they rebadged them as.
Yep, I looked at the uprights from an S reg Rover 100 and they had bolt on steering arms. The Mini hubs I've got have bolt on steering arms
too.
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Ferg
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| posted on 15/7/08 at 06:45 PM |
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Hi Doug,
Libra uses Rover Metro uprights front and back. They are indeed reversed on the front left to right.
GTM supply their own steering arm which as you say bolts on. The Libra uses a different balljoint on the bottom wishbone.
I think it might be Golf....
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garage19
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| posted on 15/7/08 at 07:50 PM |
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Hello Ferg. Any piccies of the libra front end?
Are the callipers at the front?
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Ferg
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| posted on 15/7/08 at 09:11 PM |
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Any use? I'll find a better one if you like.
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JC
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| posted on 16/7/08 at 10:52 AM |
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How about this? GTM wishbones and metro uprights in a terrapin. Guess they do have bolt on arms! I am in Canada at the moment but will check the
ones I have when I return!
[Edited on 16/7/08 by JC]
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JC
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| posted on 16/7/08 at 10:57 AM |
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Sorry about the size ^^^^^
Every time I try to alter it, the photos refuse to post!
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andyps
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| posted on 16/7/08 at 04:02 PM |
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Any idea what the top rose joints are - just wondering how they cope with the taper on the Metro ball joint.
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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Ferg
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| posted on 16/7/08 at 04:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andyps
Any idea what the top rose joints are - just wondering how they cope with the taper on the Metro ball joint.
No idea. Those aren't GTM wishbones.
The bottom pic shows some Libra fronts and a few bits of Libra rear.
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