woodster
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| posted on 8/7/14 at 08:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
No woodster, not quite the same thing. The rest of the world is not combining to one single government.
no not the rest of the world  .... the rest of Europe are going towards a federal style government like as said above the USA,...... i personelly
hope they don't vote yes, i still think we're better as one united kingdom, it'll start a complete collapse Wales will be next then
Yorkshire and Lancashire not wanting to be governed by soft southern jessys
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 11:41 AM |
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I've been on the fence from the start due to a lack of information from either side, however I'm now firmly in the YES camp.
One of the reasons that it is so hard to make an informed decision is due to the political alignment of the vast majority of the UK press. Not
surprisingly none of the dailies or nationals are pro independence, so anything reported tends to be skewed in favour of the unionists.
It has become increasingly obvious that the Better Together (BT) have continually used half truths (or at times complete lies) to play on the fears of
the voter, examples suchs as health care, education and pensions when the truth is that scottish health care and education are already completely
controlled and funded by the scottish government, while Westminster has confirmed that state pension would still be paid by Westminster to anybody who
is currently eligible, the same way that if you move abroad to Spain etc your state pension is still paid to you.
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of
the UK. The better together campaign continually point out that there is higher public spending in Scotland than the rest of the UK, this is true
approximately £1200 per person per year higher than the UK. What they do not mention is that Scotland raises approximately £1700 per person per year
more than the UK average in taxes. So Scotalnd does indeed support the rest of the UK to the tune of £500 per person.
The other problem is Alex Salmond. We are not voting for Alex Salmond or the SNP we are voting on whether we want to be an independent country who has
the power to elect a government of our choice and in the event of a yes vote we will get the chance to do exactly that.
Cheers
Davie
[Edited on 25/8/14 by daviep]
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 12:44 PM |
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Well I wish you well. As someone with a Scottish mother it will be sad to see you go.
Just don't expect the UK Government to do you any favours on EU, Currency, Borders and so on and so forth. In any divorce the one leaving
doesn't get to keep the credit card. Also don't expect to rejoin when the oil runs out....
Now.....what about independence for England. Let NI and Wales have independance. England would be much better off, no issues with name or flag to
worry about. I think I'm on to something here....
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 12:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of
the UK. The better together campaign continually point out that there is higher public spending in Scotland than the rest of the UK, this is true
approximately £1200 per person per year higher than the UK. What they do not mention is that Scotland raises approximately £1700 per person per year
more than the UK average in taxes. So Scotalnd does indeed support the rest of the UK to the tune of £500 per person.
It would be more accurate to say the London supports the rest of the UK, not Scotland.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 01:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of
the UK. The better together campaign continually point out that there is higher public spending in Scotland than the rest of the UK, this is true
approximately £1200 per person per year higher than the UK. What they do not mention is that Scotland raises approximately £1700 per person per year
more than the UK average in taxes. So Scotalnd does indeed support the rest of the UK to the tune of £500 per person.
It would be more accurate to say the London supports the rest of the UK, not Scotland.
It would be more truthful to London's overheated economy has been killing off the real UK's economy for years.
Precious little money earned by the City of London flows out more than 40 miles from the square mile.
What kept the rest of the UK's economy going was mainly oil, whisky and defence industries together with a few companies in niche markets such
as JCB.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 01:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Well I wish you well. As someone with a Scottish mother it will be sad to see you go.
Just don't expect the UK Government to do you any favours on EU, Currency, Borders and so on and so forth. In any divorce the one leaving
doesn't get to keep the credit card. Also don't expect to rejoin when the oil runs out....
Now.....what about independence for England. Let NI and Wales have independance. England would be much better off, no issues with name or flag to
worry about. I think I'm on to something here....
EU membership is nothing to do with what an English government wants, wake up to the fact the England is not a major power and the resst of the EU is
a bit sick of little England's attitude to the EU, in contrast Scotland is much more pro-european.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 01:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by woodster
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
No woodster, not quite the same thing. The rest of the world is not combining to one single government.
no not the rest of the world .... the rest of Europe are going towards a federal style government like as said above the USA,...... i personelly
hope they don't vote yes, i still think we're better as one united kingdom, it'll start a complete collapse Wales will be next then
Yorkshire and Lancashire not wanting to be governed by soft southern jessys
The danger for the rest of the UK is without Scotland the centreline of Westminster politics will move so far to the right it will become an even more
devided and sick society.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 02:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of
the UK.
Really? Are you sure about that?
2013 GDP of Scotland = £248 Billion
2013 GDP of United Kingdom as a whole = £2,522 Billion
So let me get this right... you're saying that noble little Scotland, with a GPD of 10% of the union, is propping up the whole UK economy single
handedly?
What have you been smoking, and where can I buy some, please?
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 02:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
The biggest half truth which perpetuated is that Scotland is supported by the rest of the UK. The truth is that Scotland actually supports the rest of
the UK.
Really? Are you sure about that?
2013 GDP of Scotland = £248 Billion
2013 GDP of United Kingdom as a whole = £2,522 Billion
So let me get this right... you're saying that noble little Scotland, with a GPD of 10% of the union, is propping up the whole UK economy single
handedly?
What have you been smoking, and where can I buy some, please?
We give Westminster more than we receive therefore we are supporting the rest of the UK. I'm not sure which bit of this you don't
understand?
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 02:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Well I wish you well. As someone with a Scottish mother it will be sad to see you go.
Just don't expect the UK Government to do you any favours on EU, Currency, Borders and so on and so forth. In any divorce the one leaving
doesn't get to keep the credit card. Also don't expect to rejoin when the oil runs out....
Now.....what about independence for England. Let NI and Wales have independance. England would be much better off, no issues with name or flag to
worry about. I think I'm on to something here....
Not sure why you bring your mother's nationality up?
You appear to be succumbing to the nonsense being spouted by Better Together and the press. None of the issues you mention are real issues.
Currency - Scotland will keep using the pound if that is what we as a country want.
Borders - We already have our own border agency, it will be an open border between Scotland and England anything else would be madness for all
concerned.
EU - Not sure what type of "favour" the UK could or couldn't do should Scotland wish to join the EU.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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scudderfish
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 02:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
We give Westminster more than we receive therefore we are supporting the rest of the UK. I'm not sure which bit of this you don't
understand?
Cheers
Davie
The problem I see is that whilst it is relatively straightforward to calculate the total tax take from Scotland, what it receives is very easy to
manipulate one way or the other dependent on how you divvy up the spending that covers the whole of the UK. For example, how much of the defence
budget is spent on Scotland? What fraction of HMS Ambush is allocated as being spent on Scotland? Does Scotland bear the cost entirely of RAF
Lossiemouth, or does Wales chip in as well? You can write the figures in whatever way you want, and to say definitively that £x is greater than £y
without any sort of error bars or qualification of where the number came from can be misleading.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 02:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
We give Westminster more than we receive therefore we are supporting the rest of the UK. I'm not sure which bit of this you don't
understand?
You don't really get how economies work, do you?
You think your tax burden will go down, when you have to run a totally independent government bureaucracy and national infrastructure on a GDP
1/10th the size of the one you're a part of at present?
Welcome to the Third World... I hope you'll be happy there!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 02:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Currency - Scotland will keep using the pound if that is what we as a country want.
Borders - We already have our own border agency, it will be an open border between Scotland and England anything else would be madness for all
concerned.
Says who?
You seem to believe that Scotland has a unilateral say in things.
Is there an open border between NI and Eire?
Does Eire share the pound?
Neither an open border (very serious security issues) nor a shared currency (look at what happened to the Euro with the mismatch between the Greek and
German economies), would be in the UK's interest, so why should we accept them?
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 03:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Currency - Scotland will keep using the pound if that is what we as a country want.
Borders - We already have our own border agency, it will be an open border between Scotland and England anything else would be madness for all
concerned.
Says who?
You seem to believe that Scotland has a unilateral say in things.
Is there an open border between NI and Eire?
Does Eire share the pound?
Neither an open border (very serious security issues) nor a shared currency (look at what happened to the Euro with the mismatch between the Greek and
German economies), would be in the UK's interest, so why should we accept them?
Actually the both the Irish Free State and as it later became the Irish Republic did share a currency with the UK, later when they did create thier on
currency the Irish Pound (Puint) it was fixed by law thee rate of Ir£ = £ Sterling and remained so without until Ireland joined the Euro.
The Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Gibraltar and numerous other place around the world also share the Pound without being part of the UK.
It was not that long ago that Australia and Canada also used Sterling and they had very different economies to the UK.
As for open borders most of Euro has had open borders since the Schengen Agreement 20 years ago.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 03:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
Currency - Scotland will keep using the pound if that is what we as a country want.
Borders - We already have our own border agency, it will be an open border between Scotland and England anything else would be madness for all
concerned.
Says who?
You seem to believe that Scotland has a unilateral say in things.
Is there an open border between NI and Eire?
Does Eire share the pound?
Neither an open border (very serious security issues) nor a shared currency (look at what happened to the Euro with the mismatch between the Greek and
German economies), would be in the UK's interest, so why should we accept them?
Actually the both the Irish Free State and as it later became the Irish Republic did share a currency with the UK, later when they did create thier on
currency the Irish Pound (Puint) it was fixed by law thee rate of Ir£ = £ Sterling and remained so without until Ireland joined the Euro.
The Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Gibraltar and numerous other place around the world also share the Pound without being part of the UK.
It was not that long ago that Australia and Canada also used Sterling and they had very different economies to the UK.
As for open borders most of Euro has had open borders since the Schengen Agreement 20 years ago.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 03:58 PM |
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Re: Currency Issue
Having read, and re-read all the comments on the whole independence question, I noted that the currency issue caused much discussion.
Take a look at Slovenia. This small, mountainous country had been part of the enforced amalgamation of various, previously sub-Austro_Hungarian,
states into what used to be Yugoslavia. Seizing the opportunity to gain their independence, while the Serbian nationalists battled with everyone else,
the Slovenes created their own currency (the tolar). In 2006/2007 they adopted the Euro. Their agriculturally-based economy now seems to have become
much more based on tourism. Which might be an interesting possibility for the future independent Scots to follow.
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 03:59 PM |
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The whole of the Yes campaign seems to be based on what everyone else might do....The rest of the UK might have an open border, Scotland
'may' be able to join the EU straight away and Scotland will have a currency union with the Rest of the UK.
All of these things are not going to happen. Scotland will get a vote on the 18th September on independence....but the remaining parts of the UK do
not have to smile and play nice afterwards. You will be on your own. Most large companies will have to move south to remain in the EU, all the
current RN shipbuilding north of the border will be brought back to Portsmouth and so on and so forth.
It will not be nice or pleasant, divorce never is. The UK will look after itself without regard to Scotland.
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 04:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The whole of the Yes campaign seems to be based on what everyone else might do....The rest of the UK might have an open border, Scotland
'may' be able to join the EU straight away and Scotland will have a currency union with the Rest of the UK.
All of these things are not going to happen. Scotland will get a vote on the 18th September on independence....but the remaining parts of the UK do
not have to smile and play nice afterwards. You will be on your own. Most large companies will have to move south to remain in the EU, all the
current RN shipbuilding north of the border will be brought back to Portsmouth and so on and so forth.
It will not be nice or pleasant, divorce never is. The UK will look after itself without regard to Scotland.
All of that could happen but If I had to bet on how things will pan out after a yes vote then I'd still bet on thing being sorted reasonably
sensibly, it will be in everybody's best interests.
As a side note everybody could know the fate of Scotland joining the EU as an independent nation, the european commission have said they will confirm
whether Scotland would be allowed to join immediately if a member state asks the question, strangely the UK government refuse to ask the question. The
cynic in me presumes they can already guess the answer and it doesn't suit them.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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scootz
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 04:47 PM |
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Jeff, we are each other's biggest trading partners. It would be spite-driven economic insanity for the remaining members of the UK to block a
currency union if Scotland does vote 'Yes'.
As for EU membership scare stories... Scotland is largely pro-Europe - the noises from the rest of the UK suggest there is a real possibility of the
UK (as it stands) removing itself from the EU if the Tory 'in /out' ballot happens as promised.
And if that does happen, then there is a strong possibility that the Government of the day will be a Tory / UKIP coalition. Boris as our PM and Nigel
as his Deputy. Now I don't know about you, but that prospect TERRIFIES me! A buffoon and a racist.
Sam - the Third World??? . Come on fella... we're trying to have a serious conversation here. Economists on both sides of the debate have long
been confident that Scotland would remain a wealthy country if it gained independence.
Like Davie, I was undecided, but I've climbed down on the 'Yes' side of the fence. It just seems a no-brainer. Sadly though, I
think it will be a 'No' vote as a lot of the Scottish population have bought the ridiculous scare stories.
And let's congratulate ourselves here folks... there are not many places on the planet where such matters can be decided so peacefully and
democratically.
It's Evolution Baby!
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scootz
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 04:53 PM |
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Should also add that a currency union and using another countries currency are not mutually exclusive. The remaining members of the UK could not stop
an independent Scotland from using the pound if thats what the Scottish government decided they wanted to use.
It's Evolution Baby!
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jeffw
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 05:01 PM |
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So the basic premises is of the Yes campaign is.....we are off but we expect you to bend over backwards and be nice. Why on earth would we (the UK)
do that?
Yes, of course, Scotland can use Sterling. But fiscal policy will be set by the Bank of England to suit the UK not Scotland. You might as well use
US Dollars for the control over your economy it will give you.
The Yes campaign is based on wishful thinking without any factual answers.
I suppose the plus side is no more Labour Governments....bonus. Vote Yes all you Scots....please.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by jeffw]
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spaximus
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 05:07 PM |
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It will be a sad day if the Scottish electorate do decide to leave the UK. The biggest problem I see is that both sides have not been honest as you
can manipulate figures until the cows come home. From the figures I have seen there is no doubt Scotland will be okay on their own, so long as the oil
still flows, but if it all goes wrong there is no way the economic future is as good alone as together.
The people who should feel they get the worst deal is the English electorate, the Scottish Welsh and NI all have a vote on what we get to spend and do
but we have no say in Scotland. I object to free prescriptions, free tuition and free end of life care, when we have none of that in England and no
party suggests that we should have it.
The main reason Salmond wants a yes vote is power, pure and simple. The only people who will benefit long term are the political elite of Scotland,
the average person will see no difference at all in their day to day life.
I hope the vote is a resounding no to independence and we can put this nonsense behind us and build a United Kingdom that is secure and equal for all
regardless of location in what is a nation envied by many around the world.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 05:34 PM |
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Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should Scotland keep the Pound? The Irish Republic had to go their own way after independence, with the Punt, so why should Scotland expect
anything different?
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare.
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign country).
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they
own, and the tourism they generate).
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic
stability?
* What happens when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU? Brussels has already said publicly that membership is not going to be automatic, and
Scotland will have to re-apply once they meet financial targets.
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland?
I'm not trying to stir the smelly stuff here - they are genuine questions that no-one seems keen to answer plainly and truthfully.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by David Jenkins]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 05:46 PM |
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Still not seen anything other than blind hope and wishes from the yes campaign.
The lack of effort put into fighting for togetherness by any uk party suggests the loss of Scotland from the economy won't be detrimental,
that's what leads me to worry.
Still seems to me like childish drum banging and clan mentality with no firm basis in reality (every single question asked of the yes campaign ends in
them saying "it will all be better, you're all wrong (fingers in ears). Its as if they genuinely beleive they will get the best of all
worlds. They want a divorce but to keep the joint account, the joint house, the joint everything and think everyone else will join their merry train
to lala land.
As an English person living in Scotland I'm getting a vote but I think of myself as a UK citizen, not English.with a smaller pot you can
bankroll fewer things. The recent claim they can take the license fee contributions, expend the same amount and get the same amount back proves to me
they don't understand what they are talking about. Great politicians but I predict (more) bloody awful governance.
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daviep
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| posted on 25/8/14 at 05:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Random thoughts & questions:
* Why should Scotland keep the Pound? The Irish Republic had to go their own way after independence, with the Punt, so why should Scotland expect
anything different? Scotland keeping the pound would be beneficial to both parties in the form of a currency union, if the UK did not want
a currency union they cannot stop Scotland using the pound.
* Why should the UK allow Scotland to use the NHS? The cost of extra bureaucracy in working out who pays what year by year would be a nightmare.
The 3 NHS's (England, Scotland and Wales) have been completly seperate, if you live in Scotland and are treated in England then NHS
England charges NHS Scotland for your care, this has been the case since 1950 ish, there is no UK NHS.
* What happens when all of the UK armed forces leave Scotland? (they can't stay active and work independently in a foreign
country).Scotland will have to form it's own armed forces.
* What happens when the UK royal family withdraw all of their investments from Scotland (not such a daft question - think of all the property they
own, and the tourism they generate).Interesting question!
* What happens when big businesses and financial institutions that currently invest heavily in Scotland start to feel uncertain about future economic
stability?They can leave should they wish to, hopefully that won't happen.
* What happens when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU? Brussels has already said publicly that membership is not going to be automatic, and
Scotland will have to re-apply once they meet financial targets. No they have not. The EU commission has said that they will confirm
Scotlands position if a member state asks, the UK government refuse to ask
* Why isn't the rest of the UK being asked whether they want to keep united with Scotland? Unfortunately that wouldn't work,
the main reason for independence is so that we can elect a government of our choosing as opposed to the government England wants which is effectively
what happens.
I'm not trying to stir the smelly stuff here - they are genuine questions that no-one seems keen to answer plainly and
truthfully.This is a big problem, many of the questions have been answered but press bias means the answers are not easily
available.
[Edited on 25/8/14 by David Jenkins]
I'm not trying to stir things either and have been surprised by the tone of several ot the posts.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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