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Author: Subject: 2007 ZX10R Stalling after engine start
BigMac

posted on 3/9/11 at 03:05 PM Reply With Quote
2007 ZX10R Stalling after engine start

Hi All

With the car practically finished, I went to start her up this morning and it just won't play ball!

I've got fuel in the tank, all connectors are in and have been tested previously, throttle is in the correct position, battery is fully charged, gear is neutral, all fuses present and correct amperage etc. Engine has run fine since I installed it into the chassis.

Turning the ignition on the fuel pump primes and the throttle thingy (that's the best way I can describe it!) moves as it should. Hit the start button and it momentarily fires into life, then dies less than a second afterward. in some cases it struggles to even start. Starter motor is turning over fine and it sounds like we have a spark, but I've no idea if it's a weak one?

The only things I've done to the bike loom since the startup video is put a momentary on-off switch at the end of the two starter wires (that would have gone to the bike's starter button) and a slight mod to the engine earth cable- it was originally connected to the negative cable coming from the battery, but I had to remove it as I've changed the lead, it now sits on it's own ring connector touching the negative cable at a chassis earth point (I've used the originally engine earth lead, just shortened it).

My thoughts are that my fiddling with new battery cables and the engine earth cable are probably causing a weak spark, but I've really no idea.

Anyone have any suggestions as to what it may be or to a better way to troubleshoot the problem?

Thanks!
Ben.

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mark chandler

posted on 3/9/11 at 03:26 PM Reply With Quote
Bike engines are very fussy on spark plugs, I suggest you remove and attack with a blow torch insert while still hot or buy some new ones.
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Hellfire

posted on 3/9/11 at 04:12 PM Reply With Quote
I'd agree with Mark. Try a new set of spark plugs.

Phil






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jase380

posted on 3/9/11 at 04:23 PM Reply With Quote
As said above, mine used to be terrible, if it didnt start first time the plugs would be wet through and it would be out with the blow torch. Never did it again after having it mapped at daytuner though.
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BigMac

posted on 5/9/11 at 06:12 PM Reply With Quote
Hey guys, thanks to everyone for the advice- I took the plugs out this afternoon and they still seemed a little damp. My biggest concern is what caused it to flood in the first place!

Took some shots of the plugs as close as I could, anyone know if these look ok? I've no idea how old they are, but they don't look too bad to me- no idea though!





What's the best thing to do in terms of the cylinders? Should I leave the stick coils out for a bit and just cover over the holes to stop dust? Guidance is most appreciated!

Thanks!
Ben.

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Hellfire

posted on 5/9/11 at 08:06 PM Reply With Quote
Either give them a blast with a blow torch, or buy a set of new plugs and drop them in. Above all though, you need to resist the temptation to keep fireing the engine up just to hear it. (I know it's difficult) Personally, I'd give those plugs a blast with a blow torch to clean them up a bit and have a spare set to hand for the first actual drive.

Phil

ETA - I wouldn't be concerned about flooding. BEC's are fickle about clean plugs. You won't have any problems though once it's actually on the road.......

[Edited on 5-9-11 by Hellfire]






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Rod Ends

posted on 5/9/11 at 08:13 PM Reply With Quote
Check the sparkplug gaps.
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BigMac

posted on 8/9/11 at 06:17 PM Reply With Quote
Hi Guys

I've checked the plug gaps, all are between 0.8mm and 0.9mm as it says in the ZX10R Service Manual. Took a plug out to check it was sparking, no problems there. Now that the petrol has left the combustion chambers, it seems to start without hesitation, but as soon as it starts and I take my finger off the starter switch, it dies again without fail!

Suggestions/help would again be appreciated!

Thankyou,
Ben.

P.s. There's a new set of plugs on the way anyway, but I don't think it's plugs now, having explained the last symptom?

[Edited on 8/9/11 by BigMac]

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franky

posted on 8/9/11 at 06:33 PM Reply With Quote
Seems like its an immobilization issue as its firing then nothing else.

Also try putting a jump lead on the negative side of the battery onto the chassis to see if that helps.

[Edited on 8/9/11 by franky]

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BigMac

posted on 9/9/11 at 03:55 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks for the reply Franky :-)

I double checked the Ignition circuits last night, the resistor is still there and all connections are working.

I did however call Mark from MAC#1, he mentioned that the first port of call should be the Tilt Sensor (Vehicle-Down Sensor is the name in the owners manual) as he's had this happen to a customer previously. I've got the instructions on how to test whether it's working, but I remember when I modded the loom that I ran out of heat-shrink, so I crimped the connectors instead, so here's hoping it's just a loose wire that I've created by moving stuff around under the dash (possibly creating pressure where I shouldn't have been).

Also read on a ZX10R forum that if the sensor is not working correctly, it will let the bike fire up, but will kill the fuel pump after 3 seconds if the voltage is not within the tolerable range.

Time to get the multimeter out! Here's hoping this works :-)

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Hellfire

posted on 9/9/11 at 05:33 PM Reply With Quote
If it ran ok before you installed the momentary on/off switch, try taking it out and see if that's causing the problem....

Phil






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BigMac

posted on 10/9/11 at 11:47 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
If it ran ok before you installed the momentary on/off switch, try taking it out and see if that's causing the problem....


Hi Phil- I checked this morning on your advice, still seem to have the same problem!

Have had a quick check of the Tilt switch and all wires seem connected as they should be, this is getting frustrating...

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BigMac

posted on 31/12/11 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
Hey guys

Thought I'd resurrect my old thread rather than start a new one.

First of all, hope everyone's had a great Christmas and is looking forward to the New Year :-)

I'm still having the same problems trying to get the ZX10R lump started. Over the past few weeks I've spent some time checking the loom wire by wire against the diagram, inspecting for faults and checking continuity. I didn't find any issues and the only thing I've done is replace my crimped connections with soldered and heat-shrinked joints. Gave the battery a full charge yesterday and figured I'd try again today, hooked everything up as it should be, turn the key and the fuel pump fires up and the sub-throttle valve sets itself, come to turn it over and if anything it's gotten worse! It tries to turn over but barely moves, even with a fully charged battery? It sounds like something's seized but I really don't know. I managed to get a video of it all going on- I daren't try to turn it over anymore in case I do some long lasting damage?!

Does anyone have any suggestions or can possibly have a look over it for me (in exchange for some beer tokens if you can help!)

Thanks,

Ben.

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andyfiggy2002

posted on 31/12/11 at 10:47 PM Reply With Quote
that battery sounds knackered to me & with wet plugs its flooding, take the plugs out, connect a battery charger on fast charge to your battery & turn the motor over to clear any fuel out, making sure the plugs are dry stick them back in & try again on fast charge, my blade has manual choke & is pretty sensitive so considering its so mild at the mo i dont use much else it floods

[Edited on 31/12/11 by andyfiggy2002]

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BigMac

posted on 2/1/12 at 07:45 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks, Andy.

I took the plugs out shortly after posting the thread, they were damp at the time, so left them out for a few days to dry whilst the weather was good.

Since my last post I've tried the following:

  1. The bike-down sensor is in the right position. I hooked it up to the tester with the ignition on and it's running the right voltages according to the service manual;
  2. Had the rear wheels up in the air and tried turning them to manually crank it, just to check for seizure. Not sure if it's the reverse box interferring, but this didn't do much so far as I could tell. BUT - when it's trying to crank the output shift is moving, so looks like it's not seized?;
  3. Re-fitted the original car battery after it's had a full charge.

I've still got the exact same symptoms- fuel pump primes, throttle bodies set themselves as they should do. But hitting the starter button and all I get is a very small amount of cranking, even with all the above done.

With the fact that it doesn't seem to be seized, could I try jumping the battery to the starter motor and engine to see if it cranks normally? If I can do that, it would then seem that it's definately a loom issue and not mechanical or starter/battery?

Thanks all,

Ben.

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Wolfezxr

posted on 2/1/12 at 07:51 PM Reply With Quote
If you earth the engine and then touch the live jump cable to the terminal on the starter it should spin over normally.This will tell you the motor and starter are ok.
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BigMac

posted on 2/1/12 at 08:01 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfezxr
If you earth the engine and then touch the live jump cable to the terminal on the starter it should spin over normally.This will tell you the motor and starter are ok.


Thanks, Tony. That's my next port of call!

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andyfiggy2002

posted on 2/1/12 at 08:25 PM Reply With Quote
if all else fails maybe, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can call Andy Bates from AB Performance, the famous Dragons Den TV star & all round BEC expert, he'll know whats wrong
LINK

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roadrunner

posted on 3/1/12 at 03:13 PM Reply With Quote
Come on Ben, I need you to find out as I have been following your progress closely .
Just about to change my zx9 to a zx10 and I'm not that great with electrics either.
Brad.

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BigMac

posted on 3/1/12 at 05:34 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner
Come on Ben, I need you to find out as I have been following your progress closely .
Just about to change my zx9 to a zx10 and I'm not that great with electrics either.
Brad.


Hey Brad :-)

Well the good news is that I manually cranked the car again today (numpty here didn't secure the other wheel, hence why I had no movement at the prop shaft end!). Earthed the engine up and jumped the starter motor, turns over just fine, so definately a loom issue now- still not great progress, but I'm narrowing it down bit-by-bit!

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roadrunner

posted on 4/1/12 at 12:55 PM Reply With Quote
We all live and learn.
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BigMac

posted on 4/1/12 at 03:50 PM Reply With Quote
OK, so we're now getting somewhere...

I put a proper cable from the engine to the -ve terminal on the battery, as I wasn't sure if the 'engine earth' cable built into the loom was causing the fault. With both leads in place it's now cranking freely without hesitation. Unfortunately though, still not starting:

http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view&current=7d2175eb.mp4

Am definitely getting a spark though:

http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view&current=7284118a.mp4

The fuel pump does prime and you can hear it working, but I'm not sure if fuel is getting there? When I removed one of the plugs I couldn't smell anything immediately after trying to start it... Looking like that's the next thing to look at, now.

Time to have a think of what else it can be!

Updates soon!

Ben.

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dazzx10r

posted on 4/1/12 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
Next step mate, take your fuel delivery pipe off the throttle body end and put it into an empty milk bottle, then turn on the ignition so that the pump primes, now measure how much fuel you have in the bottle, theres a trouble shooting guide in the manual, do you have genuine kwak manual? There is a filter in the fuel pump, but tbh i've never had any issues with them. How old is the fuel btw? those iridium spark plugs don't like stale fuel and are very finiky.
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BigMac

posted on 5/1/12 at 04:25 PM Reply With Quote
OK, latest update!

Took the fuel pipe off at the throttle body end today, fuel seems to be pumping at about the right rate according to the manual (yes Daz, have the Kawasaki Ninja manual, downloaded it from a bike forum). As is now the tradition with each of my posts, here's the vid:

http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view&current=37c39d5b.mp4

I'm getting baffled now, as I was hoping it's fuel related! The good news is that it's actually starting now, but as soon as you take your finger off the starter button, it dies again (back to the same problem!):

http://s757.photobucket.com/albums/xx213/BigMacVtec/?action=view&current=ec64394d.mp4

I've checked that the bike-down sensor is functioning correctly, it's running the right voltages all round? As far as I'm aware, any other switch I may have missed wouldn't allow the fuel pump to prime or the thing to crank, so I'm now properly baffled as to what it is?

Any ideas people?

Thanks!

Ben.

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dazzx10r

posted on 5/1/12 at 06:02 PM Reply With Quote
when it does start can you catch it on the throttle and get it to rev? I'd be tempted to try another set of plugs, only thing is at 40+ a set they're not cheap, but I have had 2 plugs fail simultaneously on my old ZX10r between races. Might be worth a try? Shame you're not closer to me, I have same engine in my car and a 2005 race bike in the garage, so plenty of parts to swap and try!
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