rcx718
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 11:20 AM |
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Ideas for all aluminium 2.0l engines (approx) to look at?
I've been looking at the Duratec HE, and it ticks my boxes, 150bhp is great, the weight seems low, price is pretty ok. But is this really the
only 2.0 all aluminium engine that has this sort of performance and price? Many of the other affordable engines that are popular like the Zetec, YB,
Redtop, they all have steel blocks. Why did they still use steel blocks? Even my eighties cheapo Vitara even had an all aluminium engine, was there a
reason to stick to steel?
So are there other 2.0l or thereabouts engines which have similar statistics to the Duratec but maybe cheaper than a Duratec? And ideally ones that
mate to a shorter and more modern transmission than the T9. I have a transfer box at the centre of my planned car so a long T9 transmission
won't suit too well. I won't be doing any tuning, so doesn't need to be a tunable engine.
So long as the engine is light (so aluminium), does 150 bhp and 150lb ft or there abouts (more the better obviously) then that fits my bill. I'm
just trying to get lightweight and the best for my money and as much bhp and torque as I can get without paying too much more £££ or kg.
If all else fails, the Suzuki Vitara G16B engine is a very easy install on the SJ drivetrain I've bought and gives me 100 bhp and 100 lb.ft and
engine weighs 60kg undressed, which is bottom line performance but is pretty light. Duratec gives me much more for only 35kg extra which is great but
I'd have a big pain of mounting it to the SJ transmission or have to use the T9 transmission which I don't want to use because it's
long and very big compared to the rest of the drivetrain.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 11:42 AM |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine
The Vauxhall 2.2 Ecotec engine from the Vectra/omega etc. is all alloy. Pushed out 150hp as standard and was used in the VX220 and in turbo format in
the Lotus Europa. Omega has a RWD gearbox.
Worth noting that if you are looking at the type 9 for the Duratec it would be better/easier to go for the Mazda MX5 version with the 5/6 speed box,
basically a similar length/size to the type 9 but without the expense etc. of the bell housing and much stronger, 6 speed has some interesting ratios,
low firth then effectively a 5 speed close ratio box.
I think this was also suggested on one of your other threads, the Mazda 2.6l V6 is all alloy and pretty light, 200 HP with ITBs and megasquirt.
(search Clairetoo)
A bit off the wall, but the Starlet/Glanza turbo engine is pretty small (but iron block) and can be turned to 150hp easily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_E_engine#4E-FTE
If you are after a smaller version of the Duratec then the 1.6 Zetec SE is worth a look, Bike TBs, decent exhaust and megasquirt and you are at around
135-140hp.
[Edited on 16/3/15 by Ugg10]
[Edited on 16/3/15 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 12:50 PM |
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Volvo whiteblock engines 4,5,6 cyl are all ali. Range from 2.0 to 3.0l rwd gearboxes available as well as adapter plates for gearboxes too
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Charlie_Zetec
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 01:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine
The Vauxhall 2.2 Ecotec engine from the Vectra/omega etc. is all alloy. Pushed out 150hp as standard and was used in the VX220 and in turbo format in
the Lotus Europa. Omega has a RWD gearbox.
[Edited on 16/3/15 by Ugg10]
Nothing against Vauxhall (I used to be a massive fan with plenty of C20XE redtops and C20LET turbo variants), but I heard nothing but horror stories
about the 2.2 Ecotec; mostly derived from the cam tensioner than ran off an oil pressure system. Lack of care and servicing usually lead to jumped
belts and engine destroying. The Turbo version seemed to suffer less from this, or owners were more loving!
Not to dissuade you at all, just my 2p's worth (I'm expecting change).
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity!
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mcerd1
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 01:36 PM |
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The vitara engine route has got to be the simple option, from what I remember of my mates SJ based thing I guess you don't have much length to
fit most of the common rwd boxes in front of the transfer box
quote:
Originally posted by rcx718
Many of the other affordable engines that are popular like the Zetec, YB, Redtop, they all have steel blocks. Why did they still use steel blocks?
Even my eighties cheapo Vitara even had an all aluminium engine, was there a reason to stick to steel?.
I don't think you can really count the YB as affordable anymore 
But the answer to why its made of cast iron is very simple - its just a 16v turbo version of the pinto which dates back to 1970...
I suspect main reason the zetec E, redtop, vag 1.8 and other 90's engines like them stuck with iron blocks is down to cost.
Alloy blocks can be difficult to get right so have much higher development costs
Aluminium alloys don't generally have the right properties for building engine blocks, the are good at conducting heat and can be much lighter
for the same strength as steel, but they tend to be several times less stiff than cast iron or even steel, they are susceptible to fatigue damage,
lots of higher strength grades soften when exposed to heat and they aren't very hard wearing...
That's why most alloy blocked engines use cast iron liners (which opens up a whole other nightmare of dissimilar metal cotact and differing
thermal expansion)
Most of these issues have been delt with these days but its still far more complex than iron...
Cast iron is tried and tested, so heard wearing it doesn't need liners and very rigid / thermally stable - that's why its still used for
the body of most precision machine tools etc - it might be more Victorian than space age as far as the marketing guys are concerned, but its still got
very useful properties for lots of applications.
Ford have even gone back to using it in the new 1.0 eco boost's, they say its because of the way it warms up faster than alloy
[Edited on 16/3/2015 by mcerd1]
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rcx718
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 01:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
I suspect main reason the zetec E, redtop, vag 1.8 and other 90's engines like them stuck with iron blocks is down to cost.
Alloy blocks can be difficult to get right so have much higher development costs
Aluminium alloys don't generally have the right properties for building engine blocks, the are good at conducting heat and can be much lighter
for the same strength as steel, but they tend to be several times less stiff than cast iron or even steel, they are susceptible to fatigue damage,
lots of higher strength grades soften when exposed to heat and they aren't very hard wearing...
That's why most alloy blocked engines use cast iron liners (which opens up a whole other nightmare of dissimilar metal cotact and differing
thermal expansion)
Most of these issues have been delt with these days but its still far more complex than iron...
Cast iron is tried and tested, so heard wearing it doesn't need liners and very rigid / thermally stable - that's why its still used for
the body of most precision machine tools etc - it might be more Victorian than space age as far as the marketing guys are concerned, but its still got
very useful properties for lots of applications.
Ford have even gone back to using it in the new 1.0 eco boost's, they say its because of the way it warms up faster than alloy
Thanks I love this kind of tech.
Please keep the suggestions coming and I'll have a read on them all.
Any tricks for getting reliable weight numbers on engines? I've just been getting weights off forums but most of the time you dn't know
who's weighed it, and what it includes.
[Edited on 16/3/15 by rcx718]
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monkeyarms
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 01:48 PM |
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MX5 2.0 is all alloy, with RWD gearbox. As we know it is a cousin of the Duratec.
From Wiki...
2008– 2.0i NC 2.0 L inline-4 MZR 14 5 or 6-speed MT 125 kW (167 bhp) 190 N·m (140 ft·lbf)
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 01:52 PM |
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Just remember that fitting and tuning parts for the Duratec (like its Ford predecessors) are plentiful and reasonably priced.
Getting parts for other engines (such as bellhousings and sumps) may be difficult and if its a one off very expensive.
Being different is good in one respect but its sod all use if the car is in the garage because you cannot get bits or afford them.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 01:53 PM |
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What about the Mazda V6's like the 2.5 one in the ford probe ?
Its light, small and capable of 200hp on TB's - have a search on here, several folk have used them now
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 01:54 PM |
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I have a brand new Borg Warner T5 gearbox from a Jeep CJ gathering dust in the shed. Interested? Will bolt straight to a Dana 300. Plenty of bell
housings available too.
http://locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=134074
[Edited on 16/3/15 by liam.mccaffrey]
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tims31
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 02:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Worth noting that if you are looking at the type 9 for the Duratec it would be better/easier to go for the Mazda MX5 version with the 5/6 speed box,
basically a similar length/size to the type 9 but without the expense etc. of the bell housing and much stronger, 6 speed has some interesting ratios,
low firth then effectively a 5 speed close ratio box.
Seeing this about the MX5 gearbox, can this also be used on the Zetec?
Build: http://www.martinsfurybuild.co.uk/
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 02:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tims31
Seeing this about the MX5 gearbox, can this also be used on the Zetec?
No. The Zetec uses the bolt pattern used by Ford since the late 1950's. The Duratec etc are all different.
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Fatgadget
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 03:22 PM |
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Surely for road use in a 7 style car virtually any modern all alloy engine ought to be suitable.Only caveat being how cheap to convert to RWD.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 03:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tims31
quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Worth noting that if you are looking at the type 9 for the Duratec it would be better/easier to go for the Mazda MX5 version with the 5/6 speed box,
basically a similar length/size to the type 9 but without the expense etc. of the bell housing and much stronger, 6 speed has some interesting ratios,
low firth then effectively a 5 speed close ratio box.
Seeing this about the MX5 gearbox, can this also be used on the Zetec?
There is a long thread on Turbosport (running gear forum) about fitting the RX8 6 speed box (same as the MX5, S15 200SX and Lexus IS200) to older ford
engines (Pinto, Xflow, Zetec E, ST170) using a simple adaptor plate, the beauty of the RX8 version is that it has the same input shaft spline and end
diameter (spigot bearing) as the ford so you can keep the flywheel and clutch with a bit of effort on the starter side. You can even use the Ford
Propshaft with a change of oil seal. There is a guy on there will sell you the fitting kit.
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500016
This swap is becoming popular with the classic ford boys. Ratios give you the high first gear of the Type 9 but then basically a 5 speed rocket box
from there, will handle 250hp easily, as all alloy and can be had for around £100 - compare this to a long first heavy duty Type 9 !
Nobody has mentioned the Rover K series, available in 1.4, 1.6 and 1.8 (and the stupidly expensive Caterham R500 2.0l). The VVC version of the 1.8
gives out 143/160hp depending on age and has been used in many cars, bell housing readily available for the Type 9.
Just my opinion, if you want bang for buck you can't go too far wrong with an ST170 (basically a zetec E black top with a few mods and a VCT
head) and type 9 that will bolt straight on. 170-200hp for not a lot of dosh. Sorry iron block though.
[Edited on 16/3/15 by Ugg10]
[Edited on 16/3/15 by Ugg10]
[Edited on 16/3/15 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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Ugg10
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 03:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fatgadget
Surely for road use in a 7 style car virtually any modern all alloy engine ought to be suitable.Only caveat being how cheap to convert to RWD.
I think the OP is looking to build a 4x4 frame buggy for off roading similar to a blitz ???
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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DW100
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 04:29 PM |
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How about the 2.0 V6 from the later Vitara (or the 2.5 V6)
At least there it a box with transfer box that fits.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 04:37 PM |
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If you are looking at a shorter gearbox then the MT75 ford box looks shorter (has a remote gear change that can be modified to fit as well) but still
bolts to the old Ford engines (but more difficult for the Duratec/Zetec SE as it has an integral bell housing), and there is also a 4wd version MTX75
that has the transfer box already included I think.
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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mackei23b
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 06:45 PM |
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Rover k series Vvc is 160hp out the box and very slightly lighter than the duratec....?
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beaver34
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| posted on 16/3/15 at 09:06 PM |
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I'd go k series or look at the 1.6 ford sigma it's the lightest 1.6 engine built will do your over 150 bhp but not more than 130-140lbft
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tims31
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| posted on 17/3/15 at 11:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
There is a long thread on Turbosport (running gear forum) about fitting the RX8 6 speed box (same as the MX5, S15 200SX and Lexus IS200) to older ford
engines (Pinto, Xflow, Zetec E, ST170) using a simple adaptor plate, the beauty of the RX8 version is that it has the same input shaft spline and end
diameter (spigot bearing) as the ford so you can keep the flywheel and clutch with a bit of effort on the starter side. You can even use the Ford
Propshaft with a change of oil seal. There is a guy on there will sell you the fitting kit.
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=500016
This swap is becoming popular with the classic ford boys. Ratios give you the high first gear of the Type 9 but then basically a 5 speed rocket box
from there, will handle 250hp easily, as all alloy and can be had for around £100 - compare this to a long first heavy duty Type 9 !
[Edited on 16/3/15 by Ugg10]
Now that is interesting, possibly another option rather than getting the type9 rebuilt and upgraded with a long first. Time to do some reading up on
this.
Build: http://www.martinsfurybuild.co.uk/
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Ugg10
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| posted on 17/3/15 at 02:24 PM |
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This is getting a bit OT but here are some ratios for different gearboxes -
(sorry for the format but no table/tab function on this forum)
Type 9 Std (i4 short shaft)
3.65
1.97
1.37
1
0.82
Type 9 Long 1st
2.98
1.97
1.37
1
0.82
MT75 (varies but this is the most common I think)
3.61
2.08
1.44
1
0.83
RX8 5 speed
3.48
2.02
1.48
1
0.76
BGH 2.8 Sporting Close
2.66
1.75
1.26
1
0.84
RX8 6 speed (04-08)
3.76
2.26
1.64
1.18
1
0.843
Caterham 6 Speed
2.69
2.01
1.59
1.32
1.13
1
[Edited on 17/3/15 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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wylliezx9r
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| posted on 17/3/15 at 06:25 PM |
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F20C S2000 engine. When you work ou t how much it costs to get a duratec to 240 bhp they are cheap.
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.
George Best
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