John Bonnett
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| posted on 13/1/21 at 09:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I like the concept/idea of just using hammers to form a body.
Apparently, the Italians only used hammers for their coachwork in the fifties/sixties.
Oh, and the Japanese 
https://youtu.be/FZNFsbDDOPs
Quite extraordinary, thank you for sharing the video. Extraordinary because there is no mechanisation used in the panel forming and also because it is
one man and a hammer against some very thick aluminium. It is almost like a step back in time where one man with a horse drawn single furrow plough
take on a hundred acre field.
You are quite right about the Italians only using hammers for panel making. Trev can confirm this on the numerous Ferraris and Alfas that he works on
where evidence of the hammers marks are still there to be seen once the paint is stripped off. Over here hammers have been frowned upon because of the
marks they leave and I think I'm right in saying that Aston Martin panels were only ever wheeled, definitely no place for hammers there.
What I can say from my very limited experience is that I have found that hammers are good for blocking and quickly putting in shape just where it is
needed and smoothing can then be done on the English wheel. I learnt a lot from Ron Fournier who always made his panels in this way, annealing the
aluminium first to make it easy to work, roughing out the shape and planishing using the wheel. Stretching is normally fairly easy but there is the
danger that where a lot of shape is needed that the metal will become extremely thin. This is where shrinking comes in but far more difficult to
achieve than stretching. I do have a shrinker but it cannot cope with heavy shrinking in the middle of a panel so it can mean making the panel in more
than one section to allow shrinking and stretching.
The attached are screen shots from one of Wray Shelin's videos. The first is the aptly named "Shrink Facilitator" which puts tucks
in which can then be hammered back into themselves and this allows some serious shrinking. The other picture is of a panel from a Porsche 550 which
shows a lot of bunched up metal that needs to be "Lost" or shrunk. This is an example of what can, with the necessary expertise, be made
in one panel. More than one person commented that if he had been making that and it looked like that, he would have consigned it to the bin!
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 17/1/21 at 04:41 PM |
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It's been a bit of a fiddle matching the position of the second arch to the first and making sure the levels are correct but I got there in the
end and it is now ready to be welded in after its had a coat of primer. It has been slow going but accuracy is more important than speed and a shoddy
job will always be there to haunt me.
[Edited on 17/1/21 by John Bonnett]
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 23/1/21 at 04:31 PM |
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The second inner arch is now welded in place and is as near dimensionally and positionally the same as the first one as I can make it. Position is all
important because it has a knock-on effect on the outer wings.
I'm currently working on the seat belt reel mounts and did a mockup to check that the position would be suitable and convenient to access when
sitting in the car.
I've been playing with the slope of the rear window and the photos show it placed at 19 & 22 degrees. If I settle for the steeper of the two
angles the rear bodywork between the base of the window frame and the end of the car would flatten out towards the horizontal and not follow the slope
all the way. The shallower angle will allow the slope to continue all the way. The next thing to do is to form some sweeps and define the profile from
the centre of the windscreen frame to the rear of the body. This will give a better idea of which design will be the most pleasing.
[Edited on 23/1/21 by John Bonnett]
[Edited on 23/1/21 by John Bonnett]
[Edited on 23/1/21 by John Bonnett]
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 23/1/21 at 07:07 PM |
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Good progress!
I would also tape the belt line with masking tape to get an idea how that is going to look and the effect on the C-pillars.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 23/1/21 at 07:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Good progress!
I would also tape the belt line with masking tape to get an idea how that is going to look and the effect on the C-pillars.
Thank you EB, I'm glad you still find the time to keep an eye on my posts and for your helpful comments. Much appreciated.
The attached photo very crudely inked with a felt tip in a funny sort of way shows that this is very close to what I am hoping to achieve in basic
shape for the body windscreen rearwards. As far as possible I am trying to keep the double curvature as simple as possible with the minimum of reverse
curves and definitely no feature lines. The DB5 rear end is an example of what I shouldn't find too difficult to form. The waist line is fairly
straight from the headlights to the rear lights with just a small reverse from the rear lamps housing to the boot lid; all quite gentle and doable.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 31/1/21 at 07:00 PM |
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Following on from the last update, the seat belt reel mounts are finished and the tube accommodating them welded in place. I folded a U channel which
will form for want of a better description the side window reveals and will also have a ledge welded to it for the parcel shelf. The ledge will
actually be a folded L section welded together to make a rectangle and attached to the seat belt rail at the front and to the U channels each side.
I have decided to copy the DB5 rear lamp configuration and mount in a similar position as on the Aston which I'm hoping will work well and look
good. The housing should blend into the shape with a pleasing reverse curve. I just put a piece of ply cut to the shape in position to give an idea of
how it might look. It probably won't come as a surprise that I am using Land Rover lights at £35 for the set of six delivered and not the
similar looking but rather more expensive ones for the Aston that admittedly do have a nice chrome bezel.
The rear window is in position and the stiffening tubes extended and bent to match the proposed curvature of the body and just do this has added shape
and character. I'm close now to being able to make the wire frame buck which will be an exciting stage in the build.
It was a relief to look down the length of the car and find that everything is still central and lines up.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 1/2/21 at 12:16 PM |
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Nice progress!
That rear Fiesta screen looks big, but it seems to fit fine.
I guess you already know/seen the David Brown Speedback that turned a XK8 into an DB5 inspired design
You could always use a polished aluminium or stainless trim for the rear lights surround.
[Edited on 1/2/21 by ettore bugatti]
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 1/2/21 at 01:02 PM |
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No I hadn't seen that conversion. It works really well.
Regarding the rear screen I don't have the worries about its size as I did with the front one and I have every hope that it will blend in with
the rest of the body shape.
I'm not concerned about the lack of a chrome bezel on the lamps. I'm going to try to make the rear light enclosure in exactly the same way
as Astons hammer forming the mounting plate with a rearwards facing flange. The body panel will be edge welded to it. The bezel barely shows up
anyway.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 1/2/21 at 01:58 PM |
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I have every confidence that you will figure the bevel out anyway.
How far apart are the rear light units? Both blueprints show the inner edge of the cluster lines up with the inside of the rear wheels in the rear
view, you might want to do the same.
So viewed from the top you can slighty curve the rear wings inwards from largest width at the end of the door to the end of the car.
Somehow the rear end lines reminds me of a Alfa-Romeo Guilietta Sprint, SS and SZ so that is a good thing.
It would be good to see it on wheels when the wireframe is taking shape.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 1/2/21 at 06:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I have every confidence that you will figure the bevel out anyway.
How far apart are the rear light units? Both blueprints show the inner edge of the cluster lines up with the inside of the rear wheels in the rear
view, you might want to do the same.
So viewed from the top you can slighty curve the rear wings inwards from largest width at the end of the door to the end of the car.
Somehow the rear end lines reminds me of a Alfa-Romeo Guilietta Sprint, SS and SZ so that is a good thing.
It would be good to see it on wheels when the wireframe is taking shape.
I'm setting the lamps as far towards the centre of the car as I can but am limited by the tubes from the rear window which angle outwards.
I'll need sufficient space to allow a sensible transition in curvatures. I'm planning a similar taperas you describe down the side of the
car looked from above.
Hopes of more progress today were dashed when I discovered a mistake I'd made, omitting to notice that the transverse tube immediately below the
rear window had bent where it was welded to the window aperture. There was a knock-on effect with other tubes being misplaced so there has been a lot
of cutting out and rewelding but most of all, measuring again and again. It's taken most of the day to get it right but all is well now and we
should be able to move on.
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HowardB
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| posted on 2/2/21 at 09:09 AM |
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I like the speedback - but more so I am really impressed with how good this is turning out to be,...
the second cousin to a plastic pig is going to be a swan!
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again  and goes zoom)
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 2/2/21 at 10:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
I like the speedback - but more so I am really impressed with how good this is turning out to be,...
the second cousin to a plastic pig is going to be a swan!
We hope Howard but it wont be long before we know the truth!
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 2/2/21 at 06:19 PM |
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while you are positioning the lights, don't forget that you must have rear red reflectors, and a rear (again red!) fog light.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 2/2/21 at 06:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
while you are positioning the lights, don't forget that you must have rear red reflectors, and a rear (again red!) fog light.
Good point and well worth mentioning, thank you, but I hadn't forgotten. I don't want self-adhesive so will probably get a pair of these
which will be mounted lower down from the light clusters.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rear-Reflector-Round-Reflector-Red-HELLA-8RA-002-016-111/163585923987?epid=4031357983&hash=item26167b1b93:g:GVkAAOSw3YN
XYnZc
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Schrodinger
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| posted on 2/2/21 at 10:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
while you are positioning the lights, don't forget that you must have rear red reflectors, and a rear (again red!) fog light.
Good point and well worth mentioning, thank you, but I hadn't forgotten. I don't want self-adhesive so will probably get a pair of these
which will be mounted lower down from the light clusters.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rear-Reflector-Round-Reflector-Red-HELLA-8RA-002-016-111/163585923987?epid=4031357983&hash=item26167b1b93:g:GVkAAOSw3YN
XYnZc
Not sure but don't you need a reverse as well (reverse on the left and fog on the right) ?
Keith
Aviemore
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 2/2/21 at 11:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Schrodinger
Not sure but don't you need a reverse as well (reverse on the left and fog on the right) ?
yes you do now need reverse, but the lights he shows have them already.
and you also are right in that, nowadays it's common for reverse on the nearside, and fog as an almost matched pair on the offside.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 3/2/21 at 07:54 AM |
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Whilst I hadn't forgotten the reflectors, I had overlooked the high intensity rear light so thank you for highlighting that. Reverse on the left
and fog on the right is an easy option but two reversing lamps give a better spread of light so it may be that I'll fit an additional fog light.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 3/2/21 at 07:54 AM |
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Whilst I hadn't forgotten the reflectors, I had overlooked the high intensity rear light so thank you for highlighting that. Reverse on the left
and fog on the right is an easy option but two reversing lamps give a better spread of light so it may be that I'll fit an additional fog light.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 5/2/21 at 05:05 PM |
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Hammer forming the rear light mounting plates didn't come up to expectations so the one I made has been binned and I'll have another go at
some point. So back to the body. In the interests of lightness I'm using 5/8" diameter round tube and 5/8" square ERW. I've
added to the frame which is nearly done with just some triangular bracing to go in. The ledge for the parcel shelf made from 1.5mm thick mild steel
sheet folded into a right angle section has also gone in. Finally I have tacked in 1" diameter round tube which follows the slope of the roof
and will I hope add some rigidity to the frame. A large amount of the frame joints are only tacked so I'm going to have to spend a day or so
fully welding what I've done.
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steve m
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| posted on 5/2/21 at 05:18 PM |
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Only an uneducated question
I believe the rear window frame looks to high in its orintention to were it will meet the roof
also in its plain at the moment rear view will be quite impeded,
It could be that the pics dont really show whats going on
steve
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 5/2/21 at 05:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Only an uneducated question
I believe the rear window frame looks to high in its orintention to were it will meet the roof
also in its plain at the moment rear view will be quite impeded,
It could be that the pics dont really show whats going on
steve
Steve many thanks for your observations. No, the photos don't lie and the window is set up a bit higher than one might think necessary but it is
to allow for the curvature of the roof and a flowing curve as it transitions into the back. The straight tubes are not actually the line of the body.
The slope of the rear window is 22 degrees and I have sat in the driver's seat and looked over my shoulder. Rear view should be fine but some
skill will be needed judging where the rear of the car is when reversing or parallel parking. Or I could take out the skill factor and fit reversing
sensors and a camera!
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 7/2/21 at 04:31 PM |
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A quick update. I made a plywood template for the rear quarter lights and using 20 x 20mm folded angle from 1mm thick mild steel sheet formed the
required shape. It was made in three sections TIG welded together. I'll be using Lexan for the windows.
Initial impressions are that with the more structure I add the greater my confidence that the body curves will flow and that we'll end up with a
pleasing shape. Famous last words perhaps!
[Edited on 7/2/21 by John Bonnett]
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HowardB
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| posted on 7/2/21 at 05:07 PM |
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it is looking great John.
As before, each step you take I learn something new
please keep posting the updates
thanks
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 7/2/21 at 06:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
it is looking great John.
As before, each step you take I learn something new
please keep posting the updates
thanks
Well that makes two of us Howard! I try things and sometimes they work and other times they don't.
I keep saying that the wire frame is getting very close but it really is now with just the second quarter light to form and fit and a bit of
triangulation to add to the body frame. The wire frame is the really exciting bit because that will define the finished body shape.
I'm going to follow the advice of Lazze a Swedish metal shaper and form just one half of the buck first. He describes his approach in detail in
the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRewIG-Bw7o
Although he says the buck is made from the wire used in suspended ceilings it's not clear what the diameter is. He says it is easy to bend by
hand but it looks quite substantial. I've got 6mm diameter rod and that's impossible to bend by hand. But perhaps 4 or 5mm fence straining
wire might be a bit easier. It needs to be stiff enough to hold its shape but sufficiently pliable to be able to form and adjust by hand. I could well
use the 6mm rod for the central spine and wheel arches and use the smaller diameter more pliable wire for filling in. The wire frame is another first
for me so once again it's going to be a case of trial and error until I get it right. Fortunately I'm doing this for myself and
don't have to justify the hours spent learning how to do the job.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 7/2/21 at 06:56 PM |
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King zero project use 1/4" cold rolled steel, he bends over his knee or put it through the roller. But it is probably similar to what you have
already.
Or maybe ask what Gasolini is using on his Lancia special, although a preview showed filling pipes with sand and heating it.
Is the door glass also going to be Lexan?
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