Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 05:21 PM |
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Scootz, you think my input is bigoted (English nationalist?) bullshit that demonstrates a lack of understanding of the subtleties of Scottish
nationalism. I equally think that your, and more particularly Davie's, input is bigoted, Scottish nationalistic bullshit that demonstrates a
complete lack of understanding of the bigger picture of how national economies and politics work as part of the wider world.
Clearly, we won't see eye to eye, but don't make the mistake of thinking that you, and no-one else, has a proper understanding of the
situation.
...because even in Scotland the significant majority have just demonstrated that they disagree with you.
quote:
Originally posted by scootzScotland has been bombarded with UK Govt sponsored scare-stories of being shunned by the EU, pensions not
being paid, financial collapse, companies leaving the country, breakdown in disorder, invasion from unknown aggressors, etc, etc, etc. Its been utter
nonsense!
Whereas every word and every statistic from the SNP side has been factually correct gospel truth?
Oh, come now, Scootz, are you really that naive?
Of course there has been propaganda and bullshit, on both sides. It's politics, what do you expect?
There are some fundamental basic principles around economies of scale (or should that be scales of economies?) that can't be avoided, however.
Scotland as an independent nation of 5 million would have been dramatically less sustainable than Scotland as part of a nation of 64 million.
I agree that the vast majority of the Scots, nationalist or otherwise have no problem with the English. Which makes it even more ludicrous to
fight for an independence that is not in their country's best interest.
I agree that much of the United Kingdom's problem lies with the London-centric decision making of the Westminster Government, but
fragmenting the UK into a number of unsustainably small splinter kingdoms isn't the answer to that one - sdh's attempted jibe about an
Independent Republic of the Cotswolds was right in that much, at least. Personally, I don't think that local democracy on a microscopic scale is
either - it just multiplies bureaucratic inefficiency, whilst leaving the London divide where it is.
You don't seem to be very clear yourself about why you wanted independence - is it because you don't want to be part of the United Kindgom
(and if so, why, given that it delivers clear and unambiguous economic and political benefits on the world stage?), or is it just that you
don't like the current flavour of the Westminster government (if so, join the club...)?
Can we agree on one, simple incontrovertible fact: you lost! 
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sdh2903
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 05:28 PM |
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Because of your lack of class in your responses which include crass and insulting language. You really need to make your mind up what you are as well,
a few posts ago you were a Yorkshireman by birth so that would make you English or in the spirit of togetherness your British.
I agree with davie there's many ways to debate this topic without sinking to the level of insults that you are Sam.
As a mancunian born brit living in the west of Scotland I've had several top debates with both sides without ever dropping to the level you have
in this thread.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 05:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903You really need to make your mind up what you are as well, a few posts ago you were a Yorkshireman by birth
A few posts ago, I did indeed say that I was a Yorkshireman by birth. I also said, if you can handle whole sentences at one time, that I am Scottish
by heritage (my grandparents were Scottish, of a very distinguished Scottish family), I live in the Cotswolds and I work in Wales.
I do not like to characterise myself as being of any nationality.
Of course, by quirk of birth I find myself living in the UK, speaking English, and am therefore allocated a UK passport, but there's not much I
can do about that.
I hold no respect for anyone who defines themselves by their nationality, regardless of what that nationality is: I find nationalism itself to be a
divisive and antagonistic trait, which this thread amply demonstrates!
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
...there's many ways to debate this topic without sinking to the level of insults that you are Sam.
Whilst Davie initiated this particular slanging match by saying that I had a chip on my shoulder (I may have, but it's anti-nationalistic
generally, not anti-Scots nationalism; I hate English nationalism in equal measure, and I was at least equally insulting of the English character in
my first post) and Scootz called me a 'brain dead idiot', amongst other things.
Sticks and stones... but I don't think I've directed any such personal insults toward other members on this forum?
[Edited on 20/9/14 by Sam_68]
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twybrow
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 05:49 PM |
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Sam can you stop the language please. This is a family forum. If you wish to exercise your potty mouth (or fingers), then please go back under your
bridge where trolls are more at home.
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scootz
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 05:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
You don't seem to be very clear yourself about why you wanted independence - is it because you don't want to be part of the United Kindgom
(and if so, why, given that it delivers clear and unambiguous economic and political benefits on the world stage?), or is it just that you don't
like the current flavour of the Westminster government (if so, join the club...)?
Why?
I think that the UK is far too reliant on 'services' (77% of UK GDP).
I do not want the NHS to be privatised.
I do not want to blindly follow the US into conflicts overseas.
I do not want nuclear weapons in my country.
I do not want to squander any portion of what is left of the oil and gas money on the likes of nonsense wars and Trident
I want it invested in health services, local industries, and renewable energies.
I want to remain in the EU.
I want a voice in politics... Scotland too often does not get the Govt it voted for.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
I satisfied myself that there was a future for an independent Scotland based on our existing tangible assets / industries and I saw voting
'Yes' as being in the best interests of generations to come.
Yes, of course there is a selfish aspect there. I see the UK as a sinking ship due to Westminster incompetence and nationwide apathy, and I saw that
Scotland had a chance to deploy the lifeboats. Seems the majority were too scared to do this as they thought the seas may have been a bit choppy and
cold. We'll reap what we've sown... that's democracy!
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
Can we agree on one, simple incontrovertible fact: you lost!
We did. But I can hold my head high as I did my best.
It's Evolution Baby!
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 06:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Why?
I think that the UK is far too reliant on 'services' (77% of UK GDP).
I do not want the NHS to be privatised.
I do not want to blindly follow the US into conflicts overseas.
I do not want nuclear weapons in my country.
I do not want to squander any portion of what is left of the oil and gas money on the likes of nonsense wars and Trident
I want it invested in health services, local industries, and renewable energies.
I want to remain in the EU.
I want a voice in politics... Scotland too often does not get the Govt it voted for.
It may surprise you to find that, despite my apparently being a brain-dead idiot, we are in agreement about every single one of those points.
Though with regard to your last point, I should say that Bradford, Birmingham, Berkeley and Brian who works down the Butchers frequently don't
get the government they voted for either... that's democracy for you (allegedly).
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Yes, there is a selfish aspect there - I see the UK as a sinking ship and Scotland had a chance to deploy the lifeboats.
There, of course, we differ.
The ship isn't sinking; economically it's just sailed out of a storm with remarkably little damage, so (in the opinion of a brain
dead idiot) leaping from the 6th largest ship in the world onto a small lifeboat with only enough supplies to last you until the oil runs out (and its
slowing down already) would have been a very silly thing to do, and one that you'd have come to regret.
And, of course, I'm not selfish. 
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Badger_McLetcher
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 10:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I think that the UK is far too reliant on 'services' (77% of UK GDP).
I do not want the NHS to be privatised.
I do not want to blindly follow the US into conflicts overseas.
I do not want nuclear weapons in my country.
I do not want to squander any portion of what is left of the oil and gas money on the likes of nonsense wars and Trident
I want it invested in health services, local industries, and renewable energies.
I want to remain in the EU.
I want a voice in politics... Scotland too often does not get the Govt it voted for.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
I agree on all the above points (barring Trident, Mr Poo-in-a-tin has swung me round on that matter), and think there's a better chance of
sorting them out now that Scotland's staying. I think it's unfair to expect change overnight, but reform must be had. I'm glad
Scotland's stayed, but now the hard work begins. From what I've seen the referendum has been incredibly divisive, not just in Scotland but
in the entire UK. Without wishing to sound like some kind of inspirational poster, now's the time for the UK to pull together.
And kick Westminster's arse
If disfunction is a function, then I must be some kind of genius.
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