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Author: Subject: Wishbone Showcasing
mistergrumpy

posted on 14/8/11 at 06:55 PM Reply With Quote
Wishbone Showcasing

Just thought I would show off my latest job.
I'm aware that some people don't agree with rose jointing wishbones and that others are critical but I've a few reasons for wanting them. Mainly to keep my hand in with the improvements. I'm pleased with the outcome.
Thanks to Flak Monkey for turning up the threaded ends.


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hicost

posted on 14/8/11 at 07:44 PM Reply With Quote
Rosejoints

Why would people be critical of rose joints?

Honest question just interested as to why. I have every part of my suspension back and front as well as top ball joints rose jointed, what’s the problem?

James





"I cant do that without accidentally grabbing hold of the work of the divine potter"


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hellbent345

posted on 14/8/11 at 08:09 PM Reply With Quote
I think some people can be critical with regard to thier longevity and ride comfort, but most because the shank of the rose joint is in single shear and the bending load is concentrated at the root of one of the threads - not as strong compared to using spherical joints in double shear. However, my suspension and many others is like that and they havent had any issues so i think its more of a theoretical thing, or an issue if you are really pounding round a circuit...
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mistergrumpy

posted on 14/8/11 at 11:01 PM Reply With Quote
People seem to be critical as Hellbent says. Longevity and shear loads. The real reasons for me doing it was firstly because on the nearside my upper wishbone bracket is too far forward compared to the offside one because of a confusion early on involving Escort width bones and Sierra bones and basically, somehow I've only just come round to realising it and also because I just fancied giving it a try. That's a big thing for me, trying something out, like a bike engine. No big deal and all that. I look forward to giving it a try when the weather holds out and seeing how it performs in the long run.
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blakep82

posted on 14/8/11 at 11:20 PM Reply With Quote
there was a thread a few weeks back about the 'incorrect use' of rose joints, which as i seem to remember, condradicted a similar few threads, but I think if they're checked regularly for play in the joints, they're absolutely fine. they do make for a slightly harsher rise and more road noise, but it cars are hardly the top line in comfort.

the welds though, while i'm sure they are strong enough, don't look particularly neat if i'm honest?





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alistairolsen

posted on 15/8/11 at 06:29 AM Reply With Quote
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=84209;st=0

http://www.formulastudent.de/academy/pats-corner/advice-details/article/pats-column-rod-ends-in-bending/

Those pretty much cover the reasons for not using rod ends. The bigger issue normally is the outer camber adjusters tbh. Hopefully Flak Monkey's are a little thicker than the Rally Design ones!





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HowardB

posted on 15/8/11 at 06:43 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=84209;st=0

http://www.formulastudent.de/academy/pats-corner/advice-details/article/pats-column-rod-ends-in-bending/

Those pretty much cover the reasons for not using rod ends. The bigger issue normally is the outer camber adjusters tbh. Hopefully Flak Monkey's are a little thicker than the Rally Design ones!


The second article is a very good read and well written. It certainly makes clear why one might choose an alternate method of adjustment.

Thanks for posting it,...





Howard

Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)

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alistairolsen

posted on 15/8/11 at 08:48 AM Reply With Quote
Every one of the Pat's corner articles is well worth a read if you can spare the time!





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tilly819

posted on 15/8/11 at 08:57 AM Reply With Quote
the rose joints should be fine on a road car, they take a pounding on the pot holes so check for play developing in the liners, a good wide base on the wishbone will reduce the loads they see but that apears to be pre set so you will have to live with it, my bigger consurn and i am suprised only one other person has mentioned it, is the quality of the welding. please dont take this personaly i really am saying it for your own good, but the welds dont look great and a weld failure on a wishbone could be very serious.

tilly





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mistergrumpy

posted on 15/8/11 at 10:43 AM Reply With Quote
Ha! Yes I know what you're saying about the welds but trust me, they don't look that bad in the flesh. I think it's the shiny paint and lighting playing tricks. The welding on the camber adjusters looks bad here too but that was done by GTS and isn't bad at all.
ETA just seen the photo again on the front page and the welds do look really bad don't they? Like pigeon droppings. They really aren't that bad at all.

[Edited on 15/8/11 by mistergrumpy]

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YQUSTA

posted on 15/8/11 at 11:31 AM Reply With Quote
Mistergrumpy are the camber adjusters the gold ones or is that just the reflection from the paint?

If they are the gold ones please do not use them get some made from steel.

I have first hand experiance of these gold ones and have seen them very close to failing due to cracking 3/4 of the way round the head.

HTH





"If in doubt flat out"

Colin McRae

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blakep82

posted on 15/8/11 at 11:47 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mistergrumpy
Ha! Yes I know what you're saying about the welds but trust me, they don't look that bad in the flesh. I think it's the shiny paint and lighting playing tricks. The welding on the camber adjusters looks bad here too but that was done by GTS and isn't bad at all.
ETA just seen the photo again on the front page and the welds do look really bad don't they? Like pigeon droppings. They really aren't that bad at all.



yeah i was trying to hint at it so you'd look again and see, without me actually saying it, the top outer welds on each wishbone look good, but i don't fancy the rest tbh. the bottom left one looks to miss the threaded bush in places too. i'd consider grinding down and re-doing myself





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liam.mccaffrey

posted on 15/8/11 at 04:12 PM Reply With Quote
I started this thread about spherical joints, linky





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mistergrumpy

posted on 15/8/11 at 05:21 PM Reply With Quote
The camber adjusters are the yellow ally things that I've had on since building and SVA'ing the car in 2009. The steel ones I may consider for Winter upgrades, I do remember yours giving up. I think you're the only person that have had them fail though aren't you?
Blake I do agree the welding does look bad but honestly it isn't so bad in real life. It doesn't miss the bush, the bush is cut into wishbone. It is a bit wavy because of crap lighting in the garage and stop starting but honestly if they were that bad I absolutely wouldn't use them. That's why I bought the bones originally instead of buying them.

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YQUSTA

posted on 15/8/11 at 10:18 PM Reply With Quote
Mine have not failed I removed them as soon as I could due to seeing what had happened and making a judgment that they look very weak. I wouldn't even give them away they went in the bin.

But I do know someone that removed theirs on my advice and found both split 3/4 the way round at the nut end. We had just come back from a very long road trip and I can't imagin what could have happened if they had both let go.



For the sake of a few quid and 30 mins work I would do it asap but that of course is just my opinion.





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WoKe

posted on 6/11/11 at 10:14 PM Reply With Quote
Today mine failed at a trackday.
The shank of the rose joint just snapped and I ran off track.



I intended to renew all rose joints this winter after this last trackday since some of them were getting worn out.
The bottom one is already the one with the heaviest load, and having some more play over-stressed it.
I was running slicks, and these are also putting quite some stress on the suspension. Luckily no harm done, and it seems that everything is still straight. Will have some measuring and fixing to do this winter ...

Fast lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMq0ZCJ7k0

Snap and exit ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llt3mcygbvc


[Edited on 6/11/11 by WoKe]

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SausageArm

posted on 6/11/11 at 10:37 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WoKe
Today mine failed at a trackday.
The shank of the rose joint just snapped and I ran off track.

I intended to renew all rose joints this winter after this last trackday since some of them were getting worn out.
The bottom one is already the one with the heaviest load, and having some more play over-stressed it.
I was running slicks, and these are also putting quite some stress on the suspension. Luckily no harm done, and it seems that everything is still straight. Will have some measuring and fixing to do this winter ...

Fast lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCMq0ZCJ7k0

Snap and exit ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llt3mcygbvc


How old were your rosejoints?

I really like the telemetry overlay in your videos what are you using to record the video with the overlay?

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atm92484

posted on 7/11/11 at 07:29 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WoKe
Today mine failed at a trackday.
The shank of the rose joint just snapped and I ran off track.

[Edited on 6/11/11 by WoKe]


What size and type of rod-end were you using?





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cloudy

posted on 7/11/11 at 08:06 AM Reply With Quote
It's interesting that it seems to have sheared between the locknut and the wishbone - the classic break is between the ball and the nut - perhaps an overtightened lock nut?

James





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phelpsa

posted on 7/11/11 at 08:06 AM Reply With Quote
They look like M12. If one has failed previously then i would seriously look at trying to get a 5/8s x 1/2" one in there.






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WoKe

posted on 7/11/11 at 09:55 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SausageArm
How old were your rosejoints?
I really like the telemetry overlay in your videos what are you using to record the video with the overlay?

I have no idea, the car is a 2009 factory built RoadRunner SR-1. It was built as demonstrator and was used/tested for some series in Spain (as I was told). I bought it last year and used it on 5 trackdays. The engine just had a complete overhaul right before I bought it, and I replaced the sprockets and chain this week. I guess it already had it's fair use of track-abuse.

I have an AIM MXL Pisto dash/logger installed in combination with a SmartyCam.
Direct interface with the ECU and lots of other inputs like oil pressure, throttle position, brake pressure, etc ...

quote:
Originally posted by atm92484
What size and type of rod-end were you using?

Absolutely no idea, I don't think they used the 42CRMO4 ones.
Some of them were already getting a bit worn out, and I suppose that excessive G-forces from the slick tires also aided a bit.
After quite some use and putting lots of mechanical stress on them fatigue is bound to happen.

quote:
Originally posted by cloudy
It's interesting that it seems to have sheared between the locknut and the wishbone - the classic break is between the ball and the nut - perhaps an overtightened lock nut?


Could also have caused it, overtightening causing some stretching, causing a break ... maybe

quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
They look like M12. If one has failed previously then i would seriously look at trying to get a 5/8s x 1/2" one in there.

I think they are M12, replacing them by M14 or M16 will need welding or redrilling. Guess I will stick with M12 and replace them with the best quality possible. Also the bottom one gets most of the stress, so will replace that one more often just to be on the safe side.

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Neville Jones

posted on 7/11/11 at 11:47 AM Reply With Quote
quote:

They look like M12. If one has failed previously then i would seriously look at trying to get a 5/8s x 1/2" one in there.


M10 are more than sufficient, if bought in the correct grade and installed properly, then regularly replaced with a preventative maintenance programme. Soon as they get any slack, replace. Use two piece, and oil regularly. Teflon liners are nice on racecars, where they are replaced every meeting, but not meant for road cars. I've seen the liners spat out on endurance racers, after only a handful of laps. A bit of common sense goes a long way.

Heavier rodends need heavier mounts, heavier bolts, and heavier w/bone inserts, all putting excess weight in the wrong places.

The breakage at the nut/wbone interface indicates overtightening of the lock nut.

Cheers,
Nev.

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atm92484

posted on 7/11/11 at 12:41 PM Reply With Quote
Its hard to tell for sure but the rod-end shank does not appear to be parallel with the axis of that leg of the arm. If this is true then there is a bending load on the shank. I would venture to say the increased stress was low enough that it didn't fail immediately but high enough that fatigue caused it to finally break.





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phelpsa

posted on 7/11/11 at 01:22 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
quote:

They look like M12. If one has failed previously then i would seriously look at trying to get a 5/8s x 1/2" one in there.


M10 are more than sufficient, if bought in the correct grade and installed properly, then regularly replaced with a preventative maintenance programme. Soon as they get any slack, replace. Use two piece, and oil regularly. Teflon liners are nice on racecars, where they are replaced every meeting, but not meant for road cars. I've seen the liners spat out on endurance racers, after only a handful of laps. A bit of common sense goes a long way.

Heavier rodends need heavier mounts, heavier bolts, and heavier w/bone inserts, all putting excess weight in the wrong places.

The breakage at the nut/wbone interface indicates overtightening of the lock nut.

Cheers,
Nev.


I expect that the M12 bearing was fine, but the shank obviously wasn't. The bending properties of the shank does not increase massively with better quality rod ends, hence I would look at getting a 5/8s shank rod end in there. The fatigue life should increase massively (dont have time to do the sums right now).

EDIT: hadn't noticed that the break was after the lock nut. Interesting failure and maybe not bending fatigue related.

[Edited on 7-11-11 by phelpsa]

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SausageArm

posted on 7/11/11 at 09:45 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WoKe
quote:
I have no idea, the car is a 2009 factory built RoadRunner SR-1. It was built as demonstrator and was used/tested for some series in Spain (as I was told). I bought it last year and used it on 5 trackdays. The engine just had a complete overhaul right before I bought it, and I replaced the sprockets and chain this week. I guess it already had it's fair use of track-abuse.

I have an AIM MXL Pisto dash/logger installed in combination with a SmartyCam.
Direct interface with the ECU and lots of other inputs like oil pressure, throttle position, brake pressure, etc ...



Thanks for the reply. I'd like to upgrade my standard ZX10R dash to one of the AIM's, so it's nice to see some good examples of their products.

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